A lesson in fakery or almost "took" by a good mechanic

[DonVoigt]

I saw this nice looking, but re-finished, Erfurt Artillery for sale last week. It really peaked my interest, as it is a 1914 with 1920 property stamp And a police sear safety and police markings.

I am partial to artillery lugers and police lugers, so I had to have it.

Fast forward a week, it arrived today. Gave it a quick look in the shop when I picked it up, I new it had a couple "anomalies" from the sales pictures, so home it came for a closer inspection.

Quick exam showed the expected restored finish and replace grips- both of which were visible in the pictures on line.

But a couple or three things nagged- why would a pistol with bright shiney bore and no external pitting need a re-finish, and why did a police pistol, which should have a 1 or 2 numbered mag by the time it got a sear safety, still have a like new double Erfurt inspection matching magazine with a DWM body.

Well the answer is that the entire barrel is new, with fake markings and numbers, the frame is partially renumbered, and the magazine is a total fabrication.

So how do we know this? Fortunately all we have to do on these forums is ask for help and opinions. It also helps to have a genuine 1914 Erfurt for direct comparison- which I do.

Long story a little shorter, there are "tells" that anyone can observe if one knows what to look for.

The added numbers are pantographed, not struck with a stamp or die- pantographing leaves tell-tale rounded ends and markings from the swirling of the tool in the numbers or letters, also there is no displaced metal as is seen in a stamp. You can see the pantographed numbers in the pictures below- on the magazine, barrel, the 3 and 9 on the frame are enhanced.
All the barrel numbers and the suffix are pantographed!

Compare the difference between the "7s" on the frame and the barrel; on the frame they have square ends, elsewhere they are rounded. The expected harp/square ends are clearly visible for comparison on the chamber numbers, the others should be similar- just smaller.

Notice how the inspection marking on the take down lever is faint, compared with the strong "77" and the really sharp RC and C/x marking on the barrel in close proximity.

The magazine is tougher to see in the grooves, but the rounded ends are there, and there is no displaced wood.

Also the numbers and inspections on the rear sight are not in the right places, nor are they stamped. The sight elevator clearly shows the panto-graphed numbers on the right or lower pistol vs. the fine stamped markings of the genuine 1914. Also the inspection stamps are not as small on the fake, and too "sharp".

The front sight fine tune screw, slot, and blade are a sloppy fit on the fake, compare them with the fine work and fitting of the genuine barrel which is on top/left. Even the adjustment holes are off center in the fake.

The markings on the top of the front sight are also missing on the fake, I guess they are too small to do with the tools at hand.
And the guy was too lazy or in too big a hurry to polish off the blue under the slider, notice the dark spot with the slider pushed up!

If that is not enough, the mirror bore- with non standard rifling- is a clue, and most telling is that the obduration ring in the chamber is missing, it would be present in an original 1914 barrel.

This work is scary good, from 3 feet or in online pictures.

While this work may have started out as a true and known to the owner restoration- the work was not cheap- by the time it passed to a second owner or a dealer and to me it is just a fake and an example of what we as collectors have to be on the lookout for.

Lucky for me I bought it from a dealer that stands behind his goods, so it is on the way back for a full refund.

I hesitated before posting these comparisons, lest they "instruct" the fakers; but decided the education was worth the chance that it might help them improve.

Basically it is too much trouble, and too expensive in time and tools to do a "perfect" fake job; thank goodness that fakers are lazy. JMHO.

[Eugen]

Crafty sleuthing! Sherlock Holmes would be impressed...assuming he knew anything about Lugers.
Nice, edifying story, Don, thanks for sharing.

[Olle]

Originally Posted by DonVoigt

While this work may have started out as a true and known to the owner restoration- the work was not cheap- by the time it passed to a second owner or a dealer and to me it is just a fake and an example of what we as collectors have to be on the lookout for.

I usually say that a bad copy is a reproduction, and a good copy is a fake. This is just a tongue in cheek comment, but there is always a chance that a good reproduction will be misrepresented later on.

I really don't think you're helping the fakers by posting this, when they're working at this level they already know. You would have to use period correct stamps (right size, font, shape etc) to re-create the markings, and you would also have to strike them in the same way as they did at the factory (straight, nicely lined up, spaced correctly, same depth etc). For a perfect, undetectable job you would have so much time and money in stamps, jigs and labor that it's just not worth it. Pantographed markings have a very distinct appearance, and they're a dead giveaway on most guns.

[Mac Cat]

Thanks Don!

There is nothing better than side by side examples and we are hear to learn, too!

[DavidJayUden]

Refinished for sure, but I'm just not seeing the red flags on all the rest.
I'm sure you are right, but my eye is just not so critical.
dju

[Edward Tinker]

David, I have the same issues, and will usually catch something wrong much later.

The pantographing is fairly obvious, especially if blown up. It is a 'worry' when you knowingly have something made 'unusual' and 20 year pass...

The problem with practically all the dealers that I know is that they take consignments. And until the piece comes to them, they go by what they are told. Being sold as refinished was likely their thought that it would be bought as a pretty shooter and be done with it. But it depends on the cost.
Was the police sear added recently or is it one of the rarer artillerys out there? Probably added the same time as the rest of it being 'restored'...

[George Anderson]

It almost certainly a boosted double date 1914 Erfurt P08 Police Luger.

[DonVoigt]

Ed,
the sear safety was re-finished along with the rest of the piece. No way to know for sure, but I believe the pistol was a 4" P08 - altered by notching the chamber and adding a totally new artillery barrel.

You know I "really, really" wanted it to be a genuine police artillery; if there was even a 5% chance- I would have kept it.
However- If anyone can supply me with the original artillery barrel numbered to the piece, I'll humbly and excitedly change my mind!

But it is not an artillery, as George said it is - a boosted" double date" Erfurt police P 08.

[Karl]

I would add that the serial number postscript "b" on the barrel does not match the "b" on the receiver.
KFS

[DavidJayUden]

But the notch on the chamber for the artillery sight would have been there regardless on an Erfurt, no?
dju

[DonVoigt]

David,
Not in 1914, but after 1916 most Erfurts did have the cut.

There are signs in the cut, lines and shape, that it is not original either.

[sheepherder]

Originally Posted by Edward Tinker

The problem with practically all the dealers that I know is that they take consignments. And until the piece comes to them, they go by what they are told.

And if the 'dealer' is a Gander Mountain store, staffed by what can only be described as 'sales clerks', then they don't know what to look for, no matter what manufacturer/model firearm is being traded in.

I had occasion to visit a GM store in a nearby city and I had to talk a clerk [middle-aged, not a kid] through the differences between 22LR, 22Short; target and hi-velocity, before he could even look for the cartridges I wanted (22's are not stocked on the floor). And this was before they hired the holiday drones.

While there I looked at the used handguns and was surprised to see they still had Walther P1's at $499. That has got to be the best deal going.

[Olle]

Originally Posted by sheepherder

And if the 'dealer' is a Gander Mountain store, staffed by what can only be described as 'sales clerks', then they don't know what to look for, no matter what manufacturer/model firearm is being traded in.

I had occasion to visit a GM store in a nearby city and I had to talk a clerk [middle-aged, not a kid] through the differences between 22LR, 22Short; target and hi-velocity, before he could even look for the cartridges I wanted (22's are not stocked on the floor). And this was before they hired the holiday drones.

While there I looked at the used handguns and was surprised to see they still had Walther P1's at $499. That has got to be the best deal going.

I love stores with an uneducated staff. Where else would you find a nazi contract Astra 300 for the price of a Kel-Tec .380, or a police marked P.38 for the price of a run-of-the-mill military variation? I have picked up a lot of good stuff in stores like that.

[Don M]

Don, I'm sorry I came to this party so late. Congratulations on great detective work. As I mentioned in my email to you, the existence of a Saxon police LP08 had me puzzled but I didn't examine the details. I agree that it served the Saxon police as a 4" P08.

[Don M]

For those interested, this information updates that listed in Table 14-3 of HWIS for the entry S.L.Pol.1892.

[cirelaw]

You all deserve a Doctorate In Lugers! Nothing get by your eagle eyes!

[DonVoigt]

Originally Posted by Don M

Don, I'm sorry I came to this party so late. Congratulations on great detective work. As I mentioned in my email to you, the existence of a Saxon police LP08 had me puzzled but I didn't examine the details. I agree that it served the Saxon police as a 4" P08.

Don,
thanks for your input- better late than not at all!

I was surely disappointed with the end conclusion.

[John Sabato]

Good thing that the "new" numbers weren't filled with whitening to make them more readable... that would have made it very difficult to determine the pantographing... Nice job on your investigation and education of the Luger collecting community...