Peresian LP08 Serial Numbers

[Arizona Slim]

I recently received from a major auction house a Persian Artillery Luger that was described as "All numbered parts are matching", after checking it over I noticed that the sear bar is numbered "59" and not the two digit Farsi number it should have had, also the the serial number is not stamped into the bottopm of the barrel and the witness mark is slightly off, not by much but still not as it should be, which brings me to my question, should the full serial number be stamped into the bottom of the barrel? According to Charles Kenyon's "Lugers At Random" page 268, and Aaron Davis's Standard Catalog of Luger page 190 there should be the full serial number on the bottom of the barrel. I can check other referances in the morning on this issue. Appreciate any help anyone can offer. Thanks,

Lon

[ithacaartist]

I've only seen one Persian in person, and I don't remember if its barrel had the stamp to which you refer. My general recollection is that the placement of markings adhered to military style, and I'm pretty sure the barrel should be numbered as you suggest, albeit all in Farsi. I would say that the "59" sear bar would make it not all-matching. Hmmm... what would a Persian Artillery "shooter" be worth? Seriously, though, you have an issue with the auction house--their description and this anomalous Western numeral.

Here's a pic of that gun, showing the left side, including the sear bar. The operative digits for serial number marking look like a dot, then a "9" shape. Sorry about the gun show pic quality, which does not show the marks on the sear bar clearly. But it does show that they are not the usual "Western" Arabic numerals.

[alanint]

I agree that a "59" in Arabic numbers is incorrect for the pistol. The few Persians I have examined all had matching barrel numbers in Farsi.

[sheepherder]

For your consideration...

[Arizona Slim]

Thank you all for the help, I just received an email from the auction house and the gentelman said that while the Persian
P08's did have the full serial number, in Farsi, on the bottom of the barrels as shown in vol. 11, page 776 of Sturgess "The Borchardt & Luger Pistols" the LP08's did not, but, since the searbar was not a match the pistol certainly qualified for a refund and that they would issue one upon receipt of the pistol. So it does appear that all will turn out well.

Lon

[Sieger]

Originally Posted by sheepherder

For your consideration...

Hi,

Just so you know, the numbers are properly read from right to left.

Sieger

[Arizona Slim]

Originally Posted by Sieger

Hi,

Just so you know, the numbers are properly read from right to left.

Sieger

Thanks Sieger, I did not know that.

Lon

[guns3545]

Originally Posted by Sieger

Hi,

Just so you know, the numbers are properly read from right to left.

Sieger

Actually, while Farsi script is written, and read, from right to left, numbers are written left to right.

John

[ithacaartist]

Originally Posted by sheepherder

For your consideration...

I notice that the pistol in your pic has a side plate that is, technically, mis-matched--the digits are reversed, compared to where they appear elsewhere. What's up with that? Did a tech at the factory become dyslexic (maybe dysnumeric?) when marking it?

[Sieger]

Originally Posted by guns3545

Actually, while Farsi script is written, and read, from right to left, numbers are written left to right.

John

If true, someone needs to tell both the importer and the ATF, as all I"ve seen on the Persian Mauser rifles have been transcribed from right to left.


Sieger

[sheepherder]

Originally Posted by guns3545

Actually, while Farsi script is written, and read, from right to left, numbers are written left to right.

John

This site also confirms that. It also points out the differences between Persian and Arabic numerals -

http://persian.nmelrc.org/persianword/numbers.htm

Are the 'Persian' Lugers in Farsi, Persian, or Arabic???

Lonnie, I would have to say this would be a major annoyance/outrage to me...My FFL receiver charges $40 for both incoming and outgoing, plus it would be ~$25 for 2nd Day shipping (I think RIA requires that?) so that's ~$100 out of my pocket and nothing to show for it...That's if RIA refunds the original shipping, auction fees, and hammer price...

A hundred bucks is a lot of money to me...Losing it would be a real financial blow...

[guns3545]

Are the 'Persian' Lugers in Farsi, Persian, or Arabic??? [/QUOTE]



They are Farsi numbers and text. But in reality Persian is a simple English translation of Farsi. However, to peoples in the region, they differentiate dialects of the "Persian" language by saying that depending on your region you speak Farsi, Dari or Tajiki.

But the main point is that, in answer to the question, there are differences between Persian/Farsi and standard Arabic.

John

[sheepherder]

It's off-topic, John, but thanks for the pic of the cutaway Luger! I have a set of Khyber Pass grips I was planning to make into 'cartridge counter' grips like the Dutch experimental models. That gives me an idea of how they cut out the slot!

[Arizona Slim]

Originally Posted by sheepherder

Lonnie, I would have to say this would be a major annoyance/outrage to me...My FFL receiver charges $40 for both incoming and outgoing, plus it would be ~$25 for 2nd Day shipping (I think RIA requires that?) so that's ~$100 out of my pocket and nothing to show for it...That's if RIA refunds the original shipping, auction fees, and hammer price...

A hundred bucks is a lot of money to me...Losing it would be a real financial blow...

Thanks Sheepherder, appreciate your comments and yes I would be very upset if I had to eat the the associated fees that goes along with purchasing a firearm over the internet. Fortunatly I have a C&R FFL so I avoided that fee plus the auction house in question (PoulinAntiques) has agreed to reimburse me for the return shipping fees so hopefully I won't be out anything. As far as I can tell tell they are a reputable company and if all goes well I won't hesitate to give them my business in the future.

Lon

[sheepherder]

Originally Posted by Arizona Slim

Fortunatly I have a C&R FFL so I avoided that fee plus the auction house in question (PoulinAntiques) has agreed to reimburse me for the return shipping fees...

All good! When you said 'major auction house' I had thoughts of RIA and their policies.

Too bad about this artillery. If they offer it again as a mismatched/lower price, it might still be worth something...

[guns3545]

Originally Posted by sheepherder

All good! When you said 'major auction house' I had thoughts of RIA and their policies.

Too bad about this artillery. If they offer it again as a mismatched/lower price, it might still be worth something...

FWIW and FYI for those interested in Persians, there are a lot more LP.08s around that are not correct than there are correct and unmolested examples. Their history is very checkered and they have been through a lot of hands. As far as I can tell many of those in the USA came through Frankonia, a German dealer who bought caseloads of LP.08s and parts, mainly leatherware when the Iranians disposed of them. They were offered in Europe and the States. The Brits also bought a pile of "Stuff" from the Iranians.

Additionally, unlike the P.08s and the Cutaways, Mauser did not make the barrels; but instead used old DWM barrels that had come to them through the BKIW transaction. They were really a hybrid to start with.

The Persian contract is an unusual one from many aspects but very interesting.

John

[Arizona Slim]

Originally Posted by sheepherder

All good! When you said 'major auction house' I had thoughts of RIA and their policies.

Too bad about this artillery. If they offer it again as a mismatched/lower price, it might still be worth something...

I agree sheepherder, that was a nice Persian although there was one other thing that bothered me, to my untrained eye it appeared to be 95% original finish as stated but the lands and groves in the barrel were pretty well worn, which of course could still be possible if it were well taken care of. But, as you say, if it is offered again as a mismatcked pistol I would be interested in posting a bid.

Lon