Question on 1900 Toggle Slop

[sheepherder]

I'm totally unfamiliar with 1900's; took me a few minutes to figure out how to rack the toggle...and when I did, I noticed that there is about 1/8" of free play [fore & aft] in the toggle train...(No spring tension at all in that 1/8")...

Is this 'normal'??? Or is it a common problem with an easy 'fix'???

[nukem556]

Yeah, I thought my toggle was locked up when I got it, till I figured out you have to pull back, not up! I'm assuming you mean if you ease the toggle assy forward, it won't spring shut....mines even worse, I have about 1/4in gap......its that @^$* leaf spring, never seems they have enough tension. No wonder they went to the coil system later.

[MFC]

The leaf spring makes for a very smooth feeling recoil as apposed to the snappy feel of a coil spring. Be careful... it's addicting.

[lugerholsterrepair]

Mike is quite correct..for those few of us who have ever detonated a few lead slugs down a 1900 pipe..the leaf spring is a noticeable difference over the later coil spring. Smooth and silky.

[sheepherder]

Originally Posted by lugerholsterrepair

Mike is quite correct..for those few of us who have ever detonated a few lead slugs down a 1900 pipe..the leaf spring is a noticeable difference over the later coil spring. Smooth and silky.

Maybe my mainspring has lost some of its temper and isn't returning fully???

I didn't take the grips off to look at it...I can't pick it up [from the FFL receiver] until it's on my NYS permit...and the permit clerk keeps the same work hours I do, so it's a crap shoot when I can get it on my permit to pick it up...

It ain't been no closet queen...The mainspring may well have a broken leaf or be stretched out...Whatever happens to these old dual-leaf mainsprings...

[sheepherder]

Originally Posted by Rick W.

I also wonder why folks shoot pistols that will not close fully on their own accord...

I'm not going to...

Can you tell me what/where to look to figure out why the breech isn't closing under spring pressure??? I can't even find a cutaway view of a 1900 to see how the mainspring fits...

ETA: My favorite auction house has a manual for a 1900 Swiss with a good pic of the fold-out from the manual (which they estimate will fetch $700 - $1200)...

Anyone know the most likely spot for problems??? I'm hoping it's something simple...Like the mainspring not being seated in the grip bottom...

[raindog]

It is possible that one leaf of the two leaf recoil spring assembly is broken. The remaining single leaf has insufficient tension to fully close the action. These springs commonly fail in this fashion according to my recent experience.

[sheepherder]

Originally Posted by raindog

It is possible that one leaf of the two leaf recoil spring assembly is broken. The remaining single leaf has insufficient tension to fully close the action. These springs commonly fail in this fashion according to my recent experience.

...And you found replacement mainsprings at...???...

[Karl]

Rich,
I am unclear on where the fore and aft freeplay occurs on your 1900 but I assume it is when you begin to pull the toggle to the rear. I can only speak about my 1900 - the only one I have handled. On my 1900 there is very little initial resistance (compared to a P-08) until the toggle hits the ramps. I have never measured the spring tension but my impression is that it is progressive rather than the constant tension of the P-08 coil spring. I would also note that the toggle requires the inertia of the return stroke, more than the P-08, to return to battery. As for replacement leaf springs - start looking: I suggest that you buy one whether you need it now or not. An enterprizing machinist could do well making reproductions.
KFS

[sheepherder]

Originally Posted by Karl

I am unclear on where the fore and aft freeplay occurs on your 1900 but I assume it is when you begin to pull the toggle to the rear.

Yes, exactly...The first 1/8" of travel from the fully closed position...I can flick the breech/toggle train back & forth freely...For 1/8"...

An enterprizing machinist could do well making reproductions.
KFS

There's never an enterprising machinist around when you need one...

[raindog]

Originally Posted by postino

...And you found replacement mainsprings at...???...

Lugerdoc sometimes has M1900 mainsprings in stock, drop him a line. They also show up regularly for US customers on Ebay, the seller "dealoftheday$" seems to have a few on hand and lists them from time to time.
These springs are getting hard to find, and can be expensive - I have seen them range from $60 (Ebay) all the way up to $300 for NOS on some dealer's websites. It seems like $150 is becoming the norm - when you can find one.
I wish someone would make some reasonably priced quality repro's, as I have found that these springs are prone to breakage. I think this was even so originally, as DWM soon replaced them with more reliable coil springs in the 1906 model.

[sheepherder]

Got the 1900 put on my PP and brought it home today...I lucked out...The mainspring is OK...

When I took the grips off and turned it over, I could see the toggle link flopping back & forth...Not sure how that got loose...The claw on the mainspring wasn't catching it...I poked it a couple times, and it engaged, and now there's no "slop"...

...Just 111 years worth of crud...

Is the mainspring supposed to fit in a slot at the bottom of the gripframe???

[Karl]

Rich,

Congratuations on a nice looking (from the one pic) 1900. You have put the spring where it belongs. The spring did not come off by itself, probably someone assembled the gun wrong. Nonetheless, if you plan on shooting this thing, I still suggest acquiring a replacement recoil spring (I have two spares) and an extractor, and an ejector (Lugerdoc). We await a full set of pictures.
KFS

[Ron Wood]

Originally Posted by postino

Is the mainspring supposed to fit in a slot at the bottom of the gripframe???

No. The drawing you posted does not show how the spring actually fits (Egad!..an error in an old document) The spring just tucks up under the lug at the bottom of the grip. There is nothing wrong with your gun. Glad the mainspring is OK. I kind of suspected the toggle hook was not engaged but didn't get around to posting. Sorry...but then think about the fun you had finding out!

[sheepherder]

Originally Posted by Karl

Congratuations on a nice looking (from the one pic) 1900...We await a full set of pictures.

Karl -

It's a mutt. There may be some blue left on it somewhere, but I haven't found it yet. It seems to have turned a brownish-gray...It had a nice shiny coat of oil on it; after washing the oil off, I see some rust in cracks & corners (under the oil). I've cleaned a lot of it off, but it needs a total stripping to get the rest out.

I cleaned out the firing pin cavity and found the firing pin spring retainer [guide?] was broken. I also don't know how I'm going to remove the trigger bar as the trigger bar spring has no 'bend' on the front end...I need to clean under it...

The magazine also had a buggered-up wood bottom...It looks homemade...And the mag sticks/rubs when inserted/removed...

Grips are worn...Oddly, the grip screws aren't buggered...

The bore is...Well, every time I wash & brass-brush it, I get more crud out...(Four times so far)...But it still looks worn & frosty...

Yep...It's a mutt...

Edit: I got the TB spring to move, so i know I can get it out...and a P08 FPS retainer (from my S/42) works, so it functions...Sort of...

[sheepherder]

Originally Posted by Ron Wood

No. The drawing you posted does not show how the spring actually fits (Egad!..an error in an old document) The spring just tucks up under the lug at the bottom of the grip. There is nothing wrong with your gun. Glad the mainspring is OK. I kind of suspected the toggle hook was not engaged but didn't get around to posting. Sorry...but then think about the fun you had finding out!

I stripped it down tonight and removed the mainspring...There was a goodly amount of crud under it...I was kind of apprehensive about getting it back in...Thor had mentioned that putting them back in can test your patience...But with the frame clamped to my lathe table, and using half a clothespin to push it, it went right in...After only 5 tries...

Originally Posted by Karl

Congratuations on a nice looking (from the one pic) 1900...We await a full set of pictures.

I don't have a full set, and my magazine is out for repairs, but here's a sneak peek...

The seller wanted four times what the experts here thought it would be worth...But I managed to negotiate it down to only three times what it's worth...

[Lugerdoc]

P, The best way to remove your trigger bar spring missing it's loop, is to manually push in the bar and get a screw driver blade under the spring to hold it above the bar, so that you can get a pliers on it to pull it out. I do have these shorter (than the standard PO8) original TB spring for the M1900 in stock @$20 each. TH

[sheepherder]

Originally Posted by Lugerdoc

P, The best way to remove your trigger bar spring missing it's loop, is to manually push in the bar and get a screw driver blade under the spring to hold it above the bar, so that you can get a pliers on it to pull it out.

That's exactly what I did, except I used a brass punch to push the spring out just a bit to prove I could remove it...It's OK this way, but I'd prefer the spring with the tab at the front...

I do have these shorter (than the standard PO8) original TB spring for the M1900 in stock @$20 each. TH

Tom -

The $$$ for the firing pin spring guide/retainer and the TB spring is on the way, with a copy of the prices you quoted me by email. Also going out tomorrow is the additional $$$ for the hold-open spring quote received today.

Thank you for your help!

- Rich B.

[sheepherder]

Rube Goldberg mainspring compresser...Otherwise known as half of a clothespin...

(Taken apart again to finish cleaning & measure mainspring leaves...)

Only took me three tries this time...I'm getting the hang of it...

[sheepherder]

Originally Posted by Ron Wood

I kind of suspected the toggle hook was not engaged but didn't get around to posting.

Yes, that is exactly what it was. While measuring the frame rail to barrel flange gap (.010" each side, btw) I managed to assemble it with the toggle hook behind the mainspring...Instant slop...