Borchardt w/o reserve on Gunbroker

alvin · 10-06-2009, 06:20 AM

FYI

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=141724411

sheepherder · 10-06-2009, 09:12 AM

Wow...That's almost a battlefield pickup...

Only Thor could love a Borchardt like that...

"Original Luger design"??? Cart before horse!!!...

Did you look at his No-Longer-A-Broomhandle???

I'm happy to say that I have no idea where that grip came from...

alvin · 10-07-2009, 07:42 AM

Browsing is free.

Just saw a rare "杉浦式" (Sugiura) Pistol on GB. Enjoy.

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=141957961

JTD · 10-07-2009, 08:50 AM

I would not be too ashamed to have that Borchart in my collection. John

alanint · 10-07-2009, 08:57 AM

The altered grip on the C96 looks an awful lot like it comes from a Browming 1917 machinegun.

Edward Tinker · 10-07-2009, 09:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JTD

I would not be too ashamed to have that Borchart in my collection. John

I would gladly take it too...

cirelaw · 10-07-2009, 01:21 PM

Some one should pickup the Borchardt and have Ted restore it. I would be a Wonderful piece

JTD · 10-07-2009, 01:43 PM

My opinion here is it is a pistol of historical signifigance. One where rarity exceeds condition. I once passed on a 1925 Simpson that looked much the same(sorry Ed) I wish now that I recorded the ser#. Would not suprise me if it looks much better today than then. John

Edward Tinker · 10-07-2009, 03:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JTD

... Would not suprise me if it looks much better today than then. John

yes, one reason i hate to see them "restored"......

Sure are a lot of very nice 70-90 yr old lugers at shows....

alvin · 10-07-2009, 05:23 PM

Just being rare is not enough. If it's rare and people care it's rare, then it's a star.

Love GB, it's gun show everyday. Waiting for the last 15 minutes?

===

No comments on that Sugiura?

===

[Edit] Rarity and condition are not conflicting -- one is X and another one is Y in C&R Cartesian plane, independent to each other. A particular gun is a dot on the plane.

===

[Edit 2] Ironically, low production was usually associated with something negative, e.g., low production capacity, low demand, never pass trial phase, immature design etc, etc. So, although I like them, I have been unable to answer this question to myself -- should I give my credit to the low performer? A successful pistol need volume. It's still a puzzle in my mind.

sheepherder · 10-07-2009, 06:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alvin

No comments on that Sugiura?

I thought it was a dead ringer for the Colt 1903 pocket pistol, which was 32 ACP...This says 7.65mm, but does not say if straight or bottleneck cartridge...

I have never heard of this pistol, but it looks like it could be unique for a collector...

Chinese do not seem to have made many original designs, preferring to copy other successful configurations instead...

alvin · 10-07-2009, 07:10 PM

OK. Postie did not know "Sugiura". It's supposed being a famous name in Japanese C&R world. I have a copy of the book that seller mentioned in the advertisement and saw it there. It's considered being a Japanese WWII pistol, but made in China, just like cyq P38 made in Czech is still a German gun

conehammer · 10-07-2009, 10:06 PM

Quote:

Just being rare is not enough.

Thank goodness for folks like you Alvin ( where are the rest of the chipmunks these days?) for if it wasn't for guys like you that have your collecting Cartesian coordinates set to (∞,∞) the rest of us wouldn't get to acquire some great pieces. As you tangentially approach the desired pieces the rest of us can clean up...

And "Ironically, low production was usually associated with something negative, " according to.... who? Is this a general statement or specific to firearms? I'm assuming it is "aimed"
at firearms in particular as it is the subject at hand but it is not a insightful statement for commodities at large. Again I give thanks for folks who believe that....

Jerry

sheepherder · 10-07-2009, 10:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by conehammer

Thank goodness for folks like you Alvin ...

Jerry

Welcome to LugerForums, Jerry!!! Glad to see that you made the jump over here, too!!!

alvin · 10-08-2009, 06:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by conehammer

according to.... who? Is this a general statement or specific to firearms? I'm assuming it is "aimed"

Sometimes, I could have a little bit insight by myself

Here is the thinking path. There are two types of rarities. Historical great guns (e.g. Para, Mauser, Browning, Walther, etc.... even Tokarev) have something in common: they were made across decades, they have some variations, they have production volumes, etc. Some variations in the big family are rare today because it's a development stage in its lifespan.

But rarity could come from another direction. Above Sugiura is a typical example, no before and no after, not sure why the production volume was so low, highly unlikey coming from some positive factors. Not saying it's not interesting at all, but definitely this rarity is another type.

To the extreme, here is another example in the cyberspace gunshow:

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=142039741

sheepherder · 10-08-2009, 07:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alvin

To the extreme, here is another example in the cyberspace gunshow:

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=142039741

I look at that one and immediately wonder: Why copy features of Mauser M1896 on grips & hammer??? Is the designer trying to invoke warm memories of Mauser broomhandle to his pistol??? Or did he just like those features???

From very low overhang of rear grip frame, I wonder if this pistol shoots very low??? (Or do you have to hold it over your head to shoot it???)

alvin · 10-08-2009, 07:27 AM

Mauser's impact on early Soviet Union pistol, say Tokarev, was obvious, from caliber to lock frame. But regarding this particular one-of-a-kind, I have no idea.

sheepherder · 10-08-2009, 06:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alvin

Mauser's impact on early Soviet Union pistol, say Tokarev, was obvious, from caliber to lock frame. But regarding this particular one-of-a-kind, I have no idea.

No idea?!?!?

Broomhandle influence is obvious!!!

Tokarev has no Broomhandle influence!!! It is all Browning!!!

alvin · 10-08-2009, 06:21 PM

Postie, please read between lines, not just by appearance.

The first gun that I played was a Tokarev (clone) when I was 5. Adult unloaded the gun, and I played the super heavy one in yard. When I saw Broom, I was 7 or 8. A kid older than me stole his father's Bolo wrapping it in quilt and shot one round to the ground in his home. Although I cannot remember much, I cannot forget those two after I grew up.

See my avatar? I am supposed to be the kid on the left

===

The 1st time seeing P38 was from Yugoslavian movie. Tito's partisan, Gestapo, and Crotian police shot each other with it. First time seeing a Borchardt was in a museum.... the list goes on and on.

alvin · 10-08-2009, 07:56 PM

Luger is booming on SimpsonLtd.com. Guns and accessories.

Hope one day Broom could flourish as well. Too few choices on the market. Same items list forever. Viewers are tired of those. Need more so we can look. Current situation is too boring.

====

Also, please list on GB if possible. No reason to put the $$ that you should make into dealer's pocket.

10-06-2009, 06:20 AM	#1
alvin User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: US Posts: 3,843 Thanks: 132 Thanked 729 Times in 438 Posts	Borchardt w/o reserve on Gunbroker FYI http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=141724411

10-07-2009, 05:23 PM	#10
alvin User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: US Posts: 3,843 Thanks: 132 Thanked 729 Times in 438 Posts	Just being rare is not enough. If it's rare and people care it's rare, then it's a star. Love GB, it's gun show everyday. Waiting for the last 15 minutes? === No comments on that Sugiura? === [Edit] Rarity and condition are not conflicting -- one is X and another one is Y in C&R Cartesian plane, independent to each other. A particular gun is a dot on the plane. === [Edit 2] Ironically, low production was usually associated with something negative, e.g., low production capacity, low demand, never pass trial phase, immature design etc, etc. So, although I like them, I have been unable to answer this question to myself -- should I give my credit to the low performer? A successful pistol need volume. It's still a puzzle in my mind. Last edited by alvin; 10-07-2009 at 06:32 PM.

10-08-2009, 07:56 PM	#20
alvin User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: US Posts: 3,843 Thanks: 132 Thanked 729 Times in 438 Posts	Luger is booming on SimpsonLtd.com. Guns and accessories. Hope one day Broom could flourish as well. Too few choices on the market. Same items list forever. Viewers are tired of those. Need more so we can look. Current situation is too boring. ==== Also, please list on GB if possible. No reason to put the $$ that you should make into dealer's pocket. Last edited by alvin; 10-08-2009 at 09:09 PM.

10-06-2009, 09:12 AM	#2
sheepherder Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: ...on the 'ol Erie Canal... Posts: 8,182 Thanks: 1,398 Thanked 4,440 Times in 2,328 Posts	Wow...That's almost a battlefield pickup... Only Thor could love a Borchardt like that... "Original Luger design"??? Cart before horse!!!... Did you look at his No-Longer-A-Broomhandle??? I'm happy to say that I have no idea where that grip came from...

10-07-2009, 07:42 AM	#3
alvin User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: US Posts: 3,843 Thanks: 132 Thanked 729 Times in 438 Posts	Browsing is free. Just saw a rare "杉浦式" (Sugiura) Pistol on GB. Enjoy. http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=141957961

10-07-2009, 08:50 AM	#4
JTD User Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: PA Posts: 424 Thanks: 217 Thanked 407 Times in 148 Posts	I would not be too ashamed to have that Borchart in my collection. John

10-07-2009, 01:21 PM	#7
cirelaw Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: PORT ST LUCIE, FLORIDA Posts: 12,216 Thanks: 6,209 Thanked 4,133 Times in 2,173 Posts	Some one should pickup the Borchardt and have Ted restore it. I would be a Wonderful piece

10-07-2009, 01:43 PM	#8
JTD User Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: PA Posts: 424 Thanks: 217 Thanked 407 Times in 148 Posts	My opinion here is it is a pistol of historical signifigance. One where rarity exceeds condition. I once passed on a 1925 Simpson that looked much the same(sorry Ed) I wish now that I recorded the ser#. Would not suprise me if it looks much better today than then. John

10-07-2009, 07:10 PM	#12
alvin User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: US Posts: 3,843 Thanks: 132 Thanked 729 Times in 438 Posts	OK. Postie did not know "Sugiura". It's supposed being a famous name in Japanese C&R world. I have a copy of the book that seller mentioned in the advertisement and saw it there. It's considered being a Japanese WWII pistol, but made in China, just like cyq P38 made in Czech is still a German gun

10-08-2009, 07:27 AM	#17
alvin User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: US Posts: 3,843 Thanks: 132 Thanked 729 Times in 438 Posts	Mauser's impact on early Soviet Union pistol, say Tokarev, was obvious, from caliber to lock frame. But regarding this particular one-of-a-kind, I have no idea.

10-08-2009, 06:21 PM	#19
alvin User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: US Posts: 3,843 Thanks: 132 Thanked 729 Times in 438 Posts	Postie, please read between lines, not just by appearance. The first gun that I played was a Tokarev (clone) when I was 5. Adult unloaded the gun, and I played the super heavy one in yard. When I saw Broom, I was 7 or 8. A kid older than me stole his father's Bolo wrapping it in quilt and shot one round to the ground in his home. Although I cannot remember much, I cannot forget those two after I grew up. See my avatar? I am supposed to be the kid on the left === The 1st time seeing P38 was from Yugoslavian movie. Tito's partisan, Gestapo, and Crotian police shot each other with it. First time seeing a Borchardt was in a museum.... the list goes on and on.