1917 barrel fork broken in 3 pieces

Alx · 06-11-2009, 02:48 AM

My 1917 DWM broke up yesterday, the barrel extension broke into three pieces, but the gun stayed all together .... !!!! When it failed to fire the next round, I noticed first that the trigger bar had gotten outside of its spring, and when I began to take the upper off the gun, it came apart in three pieces. Will take photos and show tomorrow or next day. But the amazine thing is that the parts were all still trapped and interlocked, held in by the frame rails, side plate, Toggle train and axle pin.

Anyway I think the cheap Chinese ball 9mm ammo was overloaded, but it was not much more blast than the White Box Winchester stuff.

In the TRADER section, I ask if anyone wants to sell an extension, or extension with barrel. I do have a barrel and receiver wrench set that enabled me to unscrew the barrel and it is ok.

Edward Tinker · 06-11-2009, 08:38 AM

wow, well good luck and engineering on DWM's part ey?

Ed

sheepherder · 06-11-2009, 09:25 PM

Could you post pics of the broken pieces??? I'm having a hard time visualizing how they broke apart...

FNorm · 06-11-2009, 09:44 PM

WOW, Alex! I almost had one of those. I had a round that must have been primer only. Luckily the next round would not chamber.

FN

Alx · 06-12-2009, 12:24 AM

Note that the barrel, trigger bar, spring, and ejector have now been removed, but of course the gun was complete when the breakup happened. The barrel itself appears ok, as well as the frame, toggle train, trigger bar, sideplate, springs and ejector, all,
This gun had been refinished when I bought it 4 years ago, and had been somewhat buffed, but numbers still all intact. 984 suffix L . The original barrel was completely shot out, and pitted. The frame and sideplate and trigger somewhat pitted. I had this 4" shooter re-barreled by a gunsmith with a Bohler Stahl 6-inch barrel, and had found a tall sight to make it shoot poi=poa. Later I chemically stripped all of the re-finish off, and kept it in the white until two years ago, I applied cold blue to make it look more normal. Several hundred rounds of white box Winchester jacketed ball 115gr.ammo since then, and altogether for the last 2 years no problems.

Second magazine of the Chinese 9mm Norinco 115gr. stuff, and this happened. I was puzzled when the trigger would not return normally, but the gun looked approximately ok. I noticed that the trigger bar was moving out further than it should, and with no resistance to the trigger, because the trigger bar back end was outside of its spring. When I began to take the upper off the frame to check on and re-set the trigger bar and spring, as soon as the parts cleared the rails, it all fell apart. Remember the toggle train was all in there, holding the extension rails against the frame rails, as well as the axle pin and S lever keeping them from backing out of the frame, and the barrel-chamber part was retained by the take down lever. The breaks were unnoticed, until free to fall apart.

Some thoughts. Notice the breaks are where the fork might be weakest, but also where the blue takes a different color. The rails are harder, I believe. Maybe normal, or maybe due to heating of the chamber area by the gunsmith when he changed out the barrel, and lost its temper at the chamber area. Maybe the chemical stripping, and cold blue penetrated / permeated the metal and made it brittle ?
Maaybe it was that the ammo was loaded too hot. or maybe the gun was at the point of failure due to age and thousands of rounds.

Notice the chrystalline texture of the steel where it is broken.

The gun before cold-blue treatment. 'Was a very accurate and reliable shooter.

Ice · 06-12-2009, 06:35 AM

I'm not a metallurgist but I doubt that the chemical stripping and cold blue treatment created this problem. I would bet that the gunsmith heated the barrel/receiver extension too much and changed the heat treatment. I am happy that you weren't hurt and hope that you find the repair parts real soon.

Charlie

DavidJayUden · 06-12-2009, 08:27 AM

I had a 1917 Artillery let go in a similar fashion a number of years ago. Probably shooting reduced reloads, nothing hot. It just let go. Toggle wouldn't close, and closer inspection showed that one of the side bars had seperated. That gun had original finish as I recall.
It's true: stuff does happen.
Luckily Tom H. had a replacement and the rest is history.
A good lesson for those shooting all matching guns however.
DJU

Mauser720 · 06-12-2009, 10:52 AM

Alx -

It was just by God's grace you were not hurt by this incident.

I think I have seen other posts on this Forum that the Chinese 9mm ammo is way too hot for these old guns.

I tend to agree with Ice that the gunsmith may have overheated the receiver and destroyed the temper when he installed the new barrel.

Is there anyone on the Forum who is more of an "expert" on this type of failure and can explain it to the rest of us? Perhaps Lugerdoc?

I know that over long periods of time, repeated impacts can cause steel to develop cracks. This is one of the reasons that aircraft frames and parts sometimes need to be periodically examined after having been soaked in a special dye and then X-rayed to see if there are any cracks. (At least this is how it used to be done.)

Mauser720 - Ron

pipeman45 · 06-12-2009, 01:12 PM

I have been using the Chinese ammo in my shooter for a few years now. Now you tell me Chinese 9mm ammo is way too hot for these old guns! Please someone step in with solid advise on this as I will not shoot any more until this is resolved.

BTW you are a lucky man not to have been injured when the upper let go.Might be time to buy a lottery ticket.

Mauser720 · 06-12-2009, 02:31 PM

Here is a post by Sieger regarding Chinese Ammo:

11-14-2008, 04:28 AM #2
Sieger
Registered User

Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: New York, NY
Posts: 621
Thanks: 2
Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hi:

Do you really mean cartridges, as I know of no Chinese or Czech after market components on the market here in the U.S.?

If you are shooting Chinese cartridges, you are lucky to still have a functional Luger, as the ones I have experienced are red hot!!!

The Czech cartridges should be closer to the WWII standard formula, and though plenty hot, shouldn't harm your Luger.

I partially agree with Tac. Cartridge A.O.L. is a vital component to a fully functional Luger. Hollow Point bullets either may or may not work, depending on the shape of the nose of the bullet.

For instance, the Speer 124gr. "Softpoint" when loaded to 29mm A.O.L. will work perfectly, as they mirror the original truncated cone DWM bullet closely enough.

Good luck, but avoid red hot Chinese 9mm if you value your Luger!!!

Sieger
********************************************************

Mauser720 - Ron

lugerholsterrepair · 06-12-2009, 02:33 PM

The Poster child for those shooting all matching guns !!

Jerry Burney

sheepherder · 06-12-2009, 06:44 PM

I'm no expert on anything, and my college days were back in the '70's (Mechanical Engineering Technology), but here's a couple of ideas on this...

That crystalline structure is quite similar to cast iron...The only time I've seen anything like that in ordnance steel is when someone has heated it up red hot (like you would for hardening) and then quenched it quickly in water...and not done any more to it...(To complete the hardening, you would re-heat it to a lower temp, and then cool it gradually, sometimes for days, in an oven with decreasing temps)...

The other thing is work-hardening...You can see this with a coat hanger or a hacksaw blade...bend it back and forth until it breaks...You'll see that same crystalline structure...I'm sure you could get the same work hardening from the repeated pounding of hot loads...

I am very concerned now about my older pistols...Lugers and M1896's...

alvin · 06-12-2009, 06:57 PM

I would not blame Chinese ammo. It's very reasonably priced, designed for Norinco 213B (i.e. Tokarev designed for US commercial market), and they have never claimed it's safe for C&R shooting.

Sieger · 06-12-2009, 09:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alvin

I would not blame Chinese ammo. It's very reasonably priced, designed for Norinco 213B (i.e. Tokarev designed for US commercial market), and they have never claimed it's safe for C&R shooting.

Hi All:

The Chinese Norinco ammo I have fired in several 9mm pistols is the hottest 9MM I've ever fired!! I would rate it +P++!

Remember, the original DWM ammo, as listed even as late as in the 1930's Mauser owner's manual, was rated as a 123 grain bullet at 1076 fps.

Current US Army loads (as loaded by Winchester) are rated at 121 grains at 1260 fps. This is +P+, AND A 17% OVERLOAD TO THE ORIGINAL SPECS.!!!!

The few Norinco red and blue box rounds I've fired through my byf 41 almost made the pistol JUMP OUT OF MY HAND UPON FIRING!!!

AS STATED SOME MONTHS AGO, SHOOT THIS CHINESE AMMO THROUGH YOUR LUGER AT YOUR OWN RISK!!!

Respectfully submitted

Sieger

PS: ALX, you are very lucky to be alive and well!!

alvin · 06-12-2009, 10:16 PM

That's "more for your dollar". Here is the logic -- those gunpowder worth what? give them a little bit more to make them happy. The intention was not bad

Alx · 06-12-2009, 10:58 PM

Thanks to the design of this great gun, I was not injured .... most other guns would probably have flown apart violently ....but these Luger parts which may otherwise have been shrapnel were retained by the tight construction design of the Luger.

Alx · 06-12-2009, 11:02 PM

NOT MY FINGER, but this Glock shooter had a nasty surprise when his Glock shown above blew up ........

jamese · 06-14-2009, 09:06 AM

Alx,
I see thats a Glock 21, is that one on the photos from an Agency in Washington State ?

I think they had a couple of Glocks that let loose and it turned out to be an ammo problem as

recall.

If this is not the case can you advise me the info on this ?

Thank you

Jim

Mauser George · 06-14-2009, 11:55 AM

All this sure makes me glad I took up reloading years ago. I don't think I have purchased factory ammo in 15 years except for Winchester Silvertip for my carry pistol.

Sure looks like a nasty thing to have happen not to mention destroying your pistol!

Regards,

George

LugerVern · 06-14-2009, 12:22 PM

The gun broke at a stress point for a Luger ( lug contacting frame) but I would like to see pictures of the rear of the breach block and both the inside and outside rear of the frame?

Damage usually occurs in these areas from too hot of ammo long before the receiver lets go.

"Great show and tell pictures!!!"

Vern

06-11-2009, 02:48 AM	#1
Alx User Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Nashville, Tennessee area Posts: 263 Thanks: 5 Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts	1917 barrel fork broken in 3 pieces My 1917 DWM broke up yesterday, the barrel extension broke into three pieces, but the gun stayed all together .... !!!! When it failed to fire the next round, I noticed first that the trigger bar had gotten outside of its spring, and when I began to take the upper off the gun, it came apart in three pieces. Will take photos and show tomorrow or next day. But the amazine thing is that the parts were all still trapped and interlocked, held in by the frame rails, side plate, Toggle train and axle pin. Anyway I think the cheap Chinese ball 9mm ammo was overloaded, but it was not much more blast than the White Box Winchester stuff. In the TRADER section, I ask if anyone wants to sell an extension, or extension with barrel. I do have a barrel and receiver wrench set that enabled me to unscrew the barrel and it is ok. Last edited by Alx; 06-11-2009 at 07:49 PM.

06-12-2009, 12:24 AM	#5
Alx User Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Nashville, Tennessee area Posts: 263 Thanks: 5 Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts	Note that the barrel, trigger bar, spring, and ejector have now been removed, but of course the gun was complete when the breakup happened. The barrel itself appears ok, as well as the frame, toggle train, trigger bar, sideplate, springs and ejector, all, This gun had been refinished when I bought it 4 years ago, and had been somewhat buffed, but numbers still all intact. 984 suffix L . The original barrel was completely shot out, and pitted. The frame and sideplate and trigger somewhat pitted. I had this 4" shooter re-barreled by a gunsmith with a Bohler Stahl 6-inch barrel, and had found a tall sight to make it shoot poi=poa. Later I chemically stripped all of the re-finish off, and kept it in the white until two years ago, I applied cold blue to make it look more normal. Several hundred rounds of white box Winchester jacketed ball 115gr.ammo since then, and altogether for the last 2 years no problems. Second magazine of the Chinese 9mm Norinco 115gr. stuff, and this happened. I was puzzled when the trigger would not return normally, but the gun looked approximately ok. I noticed that the trigger bar was moving out further than it should, and with no resistance to the trigger, because the trigger bar back end was outside of its spring. When I began to take the upper off the frame to check on and re-set the trigger bar and spring, as soon as the parts cleared the rails, it all fell apart. Remember the toggle train was all in there, holding the extension rails against the frame rails, as well as the axle pin and S lever keeping them from backing out of the frame, and the barrel-chamber part was retained by the take down lever. The breaks were unnoticed, until free to fall apart. Some thoughts. Notice the breaks are where the fork might be weakest, but also where the blue takes a different color. The rails are harder, I believe. Maybe normal, or maybe due to heating of the chamber area by the gunsmith when he changed out the barrel, and lost its temper at the chamber area. Maybe the chemical stripping, and cold blue penetrated / permeated the metal and made it brittle ? Maaybe it was that the ammo was loaded too hot. or maybe the gun was at the point of failure due to age and thousands of rounds. Notice the chrystalline texture of the steel where it is broken. The gun before cold-blue treatment. 'Was a very accurate and reliable shooter. Last edited by Alx; 06-12-2009 at 01:15 AM.

06-12-2009, 02:33 PM	#11
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,775 Thanks: 4,995 Thanked 3,133 Times in 1,439 Posts	The Poster child for those shooting all matching guns !! Jerry Burney __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 lugerholsterrepair@earthlink.net 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

06-12-2009, 10:58 PM	#16
Alx User Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Nashville, Tennessee area Posts: 263 Thanks: 5 Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts	Thanks to the design of this great gun, I was not injured .... most other guns would probably have flown apart violently ....but these Luger parts which may otherwise have been shrapnel were retained by the tight construction design of the Luger. Last edited by Alx; 06-14-2009 at 02:04 AM.

06-14-2009, 09:06 AM	#18
jamese User Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: South Florida Posts: 792 Thanks: 0 Thanked 86 Times in 36 Posts	Alx, I see thats a Glock 21, is that one on the photos from an Agency in Washington State ? I think they had a couple of Glocks that let loose and it turned out to be an ammo problem as recall. If this is not the case can you advise me the info on this ? Thank you Jim __________________ The "truth" is a matter of Perception

06-11-2009, 08:38 AM	#2
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,962 Thanks: 2,063 Thanked 4,592 Times in 2,114 Posts	wow, well good luck and engineering on DWM's part ey? Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

06-11-2009, 09:25 PM	#3
sheepherder Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: ...on the 'ol Erie Canal... Posts: 8,195 Thanks: 1,414 Thanked 4,462 Times in 2,336 Posts	Could you post pics of the broken pieces??? I'm having a hard time visualizing how they broke apart...

06-11-2009, 09:44 PM	#4
FNorm Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Colorado Posts: 978 Thanks: 68 Thanked 127 Times in 108 Posts	WOW, Alex! I almost had one of those. I had a round that must have been primer only. Luckily the next round would not chamber. FN

06-12-2009, 06:35 AM	#6
Ice User Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Texas Posts: 552 Thanks: 13 Thanked 69 Times in 57 Posts	I'm not a metallurgist but I doubt that the chemical stripping and cold blue treatment created this problem. I would bet that the gunsmith heated the barrel/receiver extension too much and changed the heat treatment. I am happy that you weren't hurt and hope that you find the repair parts real soon. Charlie

06-12-2009, 08:27 AM	#7
DavidJayUden Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 4,047 Thanks: 578 Thanked 1,414 Times in 887 Posts	I had a 1917 Artillery let go in a similar fashion a number of years ago. Probably shooting reduced reloads, nothing hot. It just let go. Toggle wouldn't close, and closer inspection showed that one of the side bars had seperated. That gun had original finish as I recall. It's true: stuff does happen. Luckily Tom H. had a replacement and the rest is history. A good lesson for those shooting all matching guns however. DJU

06-12-2009, 10:52 AM	#8
Mauser720 User Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Kansas Posts: 535 Thanks: 18 Thanked 49 Times in 33 Posts	Alx - It was just by God's grace you were not hurt by this incident. I think I have seen other posts on this Forum that the Chinese 9mm ammo is way too hot for these old guns. I tend to agree with Ice that the gunsmith may have overheated the receiver and destroyed the temper when he installed the new barrel. Is there anyone on the Forum who is more of an "expert" on this type of failure and can explain it to the rest of us? Perhaps Lugerdoc? I know that over long periods of time, repeated impacts can cause steel to develop cracks. This is one of the reasons that aircraft frames and parts sometimes need to be periodically examined after having been soaked in a special dye and then X-rayed to see if there are any cracks. (At least this is how it used to be done.) Mauser720 - Ron

06-12-2009, 01:12 PM	#9
pipeman45 User Join Date: May 2004 Location: Kentucky Posts: 539 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	I have been using the Chinese ammo in my shooter for a few years now. Now you tell me Chinese 9mm ammo is way too hot for these old guns! Please someone step in with solid advise on this as I will not shoot any more until this is resolved. BTW you are a lucky man not to have been injured when the upper let go.Might be time to buy a lottery ticket.

06-12-2009, 02:31 PM	#10
Mauser720 User Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Kansas Posts: 535 Thanks: 18 Thanked 49 Times in 33 Posts	Here is a post by Sieger regarding Chinese Ammo: 11-14-2008, 04:28 AM #2 Sieger Registered User Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: New York, NY Posts: 621 Thanks: 2 Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Hi: Do you really mean cartridges, as I know of no Chinese or Czech after market components on the market here in the U.S.? If you are shooting Chinese cartridges, you are lucky to still have a functional Luger, as the ones I have experienced are red hot!!! The Czech cartridges should be closer to the WWII standard formula, and though plenty hot, shouldn't harm your Luger. I partially agree with Tac. Cartridge A.O.L. is a vital component to a fully functional Luger. Hollow Point bullets either may or may not work, depending on the shape of the nose of the bullet. For instance, the Speer 124gr. "Softpoint" when loaded to 29mm A.O.L. will work perfectly, as they mirror the original truncated cone DWM bullet closely enough. Good luck, but avoid red hot Chinese 9mm if you value your Luger!!! Sieger ******************************************************** Mauser720 - Ron

06-12-2009, 06:44 PM	#12
sheepherder Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: ...on the 'ol Erie Canal... Posts: 8,195 Thanks: 1,414 Thanked 4,462 Times in 2,336 Posts	I'm no expert on anything, and my college days were back in the '70's (Mechanical Engineering Technology), but here's a couple of ideas on this... That crystalline structure is quite similar to cast iron...The only time I've seen anything like that in ordnance steel is when someone has heated it up red hot (like you would for hardening) and then quenched it quickly in water...and not done any more to it...(To complete the hardening, you would re-heat it to a lower temp, and then cool it gradually, sometimes for days, in an oven with decreasing temps)... The other thing is work-hardening...You can see this with a coat hanger or a hacksaw blade...bend it back and forth until it breaks...You'll see that same crystalline structure...I'm sure you could get the same work hardening from the repeated pounding of hot loads... I am very concerned now about my older pistols...Lugers and M1896's...

06-12-2009, 06:57 PM	#13
alvin User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: US Posts: 3,843 Thanks: 132 Thanked 729 Times in 438 Posts	I would not blame Chinese ammo. It's very reasonably priced, designed for Norinco 213B (i.e. Tokarev designed for US commercial market), and they have never claimed it's safe for C&R shooting.

06-12-2009, 10:16 PM	#15
alvin User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: US Posts: 3,843 Thanks: 132 Thanked 729 Times in 438 Posts	That's "more for your dollar". Here is the logic -- those gunpowder worth what? give them a little bit more to make them happy. The intention was not bad

06-12-2009, 11:02 PM	#17
Alx User Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Nashville, Tennessee area Posts: 263 Thanks: 5 Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts	NOT MY FINGER, but this Glock shooter had a nasty surprise when his Glock shown above blew up ........

06-14-2009, 11:55 AM	#19
Mauser George User Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: New York Posts: 88 Thanks: 0 Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts	All this sure makes me glad I took up reloading years ago. I don't think I have purchased factory ammo in 15 years except for Winchester Silvertip for my carry pistol. Sure looks like a nasty thing to have happen not to mention destroying your pistol! Regards, George

06-14-2009, 12:22 PM	#20
LugerVern User Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Virginia Posts: 563 Thanks: 1 Thanked 34 Times in 27 Posts	The gun broke at a stress point for a Luger ( lug contacting frame) but I would like to see pictures of the rear of the breach block and both the inside and outside rear of the frame? Damage usually occurs in these areas from too hot of ammo long before the receiver lets go. "Great show and tell pictures!!!" Vern