Undated Navy Luger

quark · 06-18-2008, 09:57 AM

I have a chance to buy a Navy luger. It is an undated dwm. What year was this made? Is this a good thing?

LugerVern · 06-18-2008, 10:37 AM

Generally speaking 1916 & 1917 lugers are the only ones dated.

We need more information to determine what variation you have and to help you date it. A picture is worth a thousand words!

If you can not get a picture, FGS has a few Navy's for you to compare variations and also prices.

PLEASE, PLEASE be careful on your first Navy purchase!!!!!

Fakes are everywhere--everywhere! Let us help you!

Vern

http://fgsfirearms.com/

Edward Tinker · 06-18-2008, 10:56 AM

Mark, welcome to the forum.

As Vern said, I have seen many guns called a "navy" because it was a 6 inch barrel or even funnier, that it was nickle plated.

So, more informaiton is needed before any good answers can be given.

Serial number, suffix, caliber, etc...

Ed

Ron Smith · 06-18-2008, 03:16 PM

Hi Mark,

Good clear photos are almost mandatory for proper identification and evaluation. Especially if you're playing with Navies.

Ron

Ron Wood · 06-18-2008, 04:13 PM

Mark,
Does it have a grip safety?

quark · 06-18-2008, 08:26 PM

Here of pics of this Luger I posted about. It is from a living vet. It is his luger. We broke it down and all the numbers on the inside are matching from what we could see. All the outside numbers match as well. The magazine had a two digit number that did not match though. It is a DWM maker.

P.S Damm. It won't let me upload my pictures. They are too big. They are on gunboards under the military pistol forums same id (quark). Can I e-mail them to an expert so they could look at them?

quark · 06-18-2008, 08:34 PM

No grip safty I can see. There is a W.K and under it a 9822 seial number there though.

quark · 06-18-2008, 08:36 PM

I forgot...... the rear sight has a 100 meter marking. It pulls out to make it 200 meters too.

John Sabato · 06-18-2008, 10:01 PM

Send the photos to lugerforum@gmail.com and I will post them in the morning...

Edward Tinker · 06-18-2008, 10:36 PM

http://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?t=49781

clearer photos of the left side and rear markings are needed.

Not to doubt your friend, but lots of fake navies out there. Is the barrel matching (I ask because of the 4 inch barrel shown in the pictures).

it looks like a nice rep piece, probably worth $2000-$3000 if all matching, as its condition looks a bit rougher.....

quark · 06-19-2008, 10:41 AM

Yes, The six inch barrel is mathing the rest of the pistol. He said the 4 inch barrel was picked up at a latter time and does not beylong to the navy luger.

John Sabato · 06-19-2008, 11:26 AM

Here are the photos sent to me... the same one's that appear on Jan's forum.

As Ed said, they are not quite clear enough to determine originality, but they are worth a look. Unfortunately, their phsyical size will distort the discussion frame, but all the detail that is visible in the photos will be seen here. I suggest you take some better photos... try and see if your camera has a macro mode. take the photos outside in good light, but not direct sunlight, and make sure they are focused. Clear photos of the stamped areas are essential to a good identification.

A very unusual holster... looks like it was made from parts of a four inch holster that was extended to accomodate the 6 inch barrel.

LugerVern · 06-19-2008, 05:20 PM

Quark

Your gun looks technically OK, It is what we call a 1908 variation , long frame with out grip safety.
These guns fall into a specific serial number range.

Could you please tell us what the serial number on your gun is, include the letter suffix if any under the SN as this is important. The suffix should be on the frame and bottom of the barrel.

The back edge of the left grip looks a bit strange to me and I am wondering if this gun might have had a grip safety at one time?

All of your pictures are just blurred enough to prevent us from telling you all is OK. You have come to the right place for help but understand we can not see the guns details. Your off to a good start, do yourself a favor and complete the review before you purchase.

Vern

quark · 06-26-2008, 10:16 AM

He called me with the serial number. He said it was 3136. Is this in the right range for a 1908 navy.

drbuster · 06-26-2008, 08:20 PM

Quark, Jan Still, on page 163 of Imperial Lugers, states that the reported serial numbers of the 1908 Navy variation have the "b" suffix, number 1044b being the lowest reported at print time and 9505b being the highest. It is the second rarest Navy (the 1904 fat barrel version being the rarest). Look closer to see if there is a "b" on the frame front. Kenyon, on page 154 of Lugers at Random states that the 1908 Navy started with the "a" suffix and continued through the "b" suffix, but I think this has not been verified. Jan Still's data is considered more accurate and is also spelled out the same way in the more recent Central Powers Pistols, page 123. Still maintains that the "b" suffix is seen as these 1908 Navies were a continuaton from the 1906 Navy lugers.

06-18-2008, 09:57 AM	#1
quark User Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Midwest Posts: 6 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Undated Navy Luger I have a chance to buy a Navy luger. It is an undated dwm. What year was this made? Is this a good thing?

06-18-2008, 10:56 AM	#3
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,960 Thanks: 2,062 Thanked 4,591 Times in 2,114 Posts	Mark, welcome to the forum. As Vern said, I have seen many guns called a "navy" because it was a 6 inch barrel or even funnier, that it was nickle plated. So, more informaiton is needed before any good answers can be given. Serial number, suffix, caliber, etc... Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

06-18-2008, 03:16 PM	#4
Ron Smith User Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Orygun Posts: 4,243 Thanks: 118 Thanked 245 Times in 150 Posts	Hi Mark, Good clear photos are almost mandatory for proper identification and evaluation. Especially if you're playing with Navies. Ron __________________ I Still Need DWM side plate #49... if anyone runs across a nice one. What ~Rudyard Kipling~ said...

06-18-2008, 04:13 PM	#5
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,035 Thanks: 1,106 Thanked 5,241 Times in 1,719 Posts	Mark, Does it have a grip safety? __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

06-18-2008, 08:26 PM	#6
quark User Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Midwest Posts: 6 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Pictures of this undated navy luger Here of pics of this Luger I posted about. It is from a living vet. It is his luger. We broke it down and all the numbers on the inside are matching from what we could see. All the outside numbers match as well. The magazine had a two digit number that did not match though. It is a DWM maker. P.S Damm. It won't let me upload my pictures. They are too big. They are on gunboards under the military pistol forums same id (quark). Can I e-mail them to an expert so they could look at them?

06-18-2008, 10:37 AM	#2
LugerVern User Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Virginia Posts: 563 Thanks: 1 Thanked 34 Times in 27 Posts	Generally speaking 1916 & 1917 lugers are the only ones dated. We need more information to determine what variation you have and to help you date it. A picture is worth a thousand words! If you can not get a picture, FGS has a few Navy's for you to compare variations and also prices. PLEASE, PLEASE be careful on your first Navy purchase!!!!! Fakes are everywhere--everywhere! Let us help you! Vern http://fgsfirearms.com/

06-18-2008, 08:34 PM	#7
quark User Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Midwest Posts: 6 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	No grip safty I can see. There is a W.K and under it a 9822 seial number there though.

06-18-2008, 08:36 PM	#8
quark User Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Midwest Posts: 6 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I forgot...... the rear sight has a 100 meter marking. It pulls out to make it 200 meters too.

06-18-2008, 10:01 PM	#9
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,155 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,308 Times in 1,098 Posts	Send the photos to lugerforum@gmail.com and I will post them in the morning... __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

06-18-2008, 10:36 PM	#10
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,960 Thanks: 2,062 Thanked 4,591 Times in 2,114 Posts	http://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?t=49781 clearer photos of the left side and rear markings are needed. Not to doubt your friend, but lots of fake navies out there. Is the barrel matching (I ask because of the 4 inch barrel shown in the pictures). it looks like a nice rep piece, probably worth $2000-$3000 if all matching, as its condition looks a bit rougher..... __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

06-19-2008, 10:41 AM	#11
quark User Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Midwest Posts: 6 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Yes, The six inch barrel is mathing the rest of the pistol. He said the 4 inch barrel was picked up at a latter time and does not beylong to the navy luger.

06-19-2008, 11:26 AM	#12
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,155 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,308 Times in 1,098 Posts	Here are the photos sent to me... the same one's that appear on Jan's forum. As Ed said, they are not quite clear enough to determine originality, but they are worth a look. Unfortunately, their phsyical size will distort the discussion frame, but all the detail that is visible in the photos will be seen here. I suggest you take some better photos... try and see if your camera has a macro mode. take the photos outside in good light, but not direct sunlight, and make sure they are focused. Clear photos of the stamped areas are essential to a good identification. A very unusual holster... looks like it was made from parts of a four inch holster that was extended to accomodate the 6 inch barrel. __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

06-19-2008, 05:20 PM	#13
LugerVern User Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Virginia Posts: 563 Thanks: 1 Thanked 34 Times in 27 Posts	Quark Your gun looks technically OK, It is what we call a 1908 variation , long frame with out grip safety. These guns fall into a specific serial number range. Could you please tell us what the serial number on your gun is, include the letter suffix if any under the SN as this is important. The suffix should be on the frame and bottom of the barrel. The back edge of the left grip looks a bit strange to me and I am wondering if this gun might have had a grip safety at one time? All of your pictures are just blurred enough to prevent us from telling you all is OK. You have come to the right place for help but understand we can not see the guns details. Your off to a good start, do yourself a favor and complete the review before you purchase. Vern

06-26-2008, 10:16 AM	#14
quark User Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Midwest Posts: 6 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	He called me with the serial number. He said it was 3136. Is this in the right range for a 1908 navy.

06-26-2008, 08:20 PM	#15
drbuster User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: San Mateo, California Posts: 1,432 Thanks: 2 Thanked 71 Times in 56 Posts	Quark, Jan Still, on page 163 of Imperial Lugers, states that the reported serial numbers of the 1908 Navy variation have the "b" suffix, number 1044b being the lowest reported at print time and 9505b being the highest. It is the second rarest Navy (the 1904 fat barrel version being the rarest). Look closer to see if there is a "b" on the frame front. Kenyon, on page 154 of Lugers at Random states that the 1908 Navy started with the "a" suffix and continued through the "b" suffix, but I think this has not been verified. Jan Still's data is considered more accurate and is also spelled out the same way in the more recent Central Powers Pistols, page 123. Still maintains that the "b" suffix is seen as these 1908 Navies were a continuaton from the 1906 Navy lugers.