Spandau Anyone?

SteveM · 09-19-2006, 07:39 PM

http://www.simpsonltd.com/product_in...oducts_id=5104

I know these are controversial..why would a well known dealer put one of these on their website without a "Buyer Beware" notice?

SteveM

George Anderson · 09-19-2006, 08:25 PM

I feel that this type of dealing is very disingenuous and probably outright fraud. Simpson offers no explanation of the pistol whatsoever and asks a modest price.

It seems that he is making a tacit acknowledgement of the dubious heritage of the pistol through his pricing and standing back hoping someone will buy it.

I believe that dealers who do business this way are showing absolute contempt for the collecting community and are working to exploit the new collector or one gun buyer. Please show me where I am wrong and I will retract all that I have written and apologize.

Dwight Gruber · 09-19-2006, 08:37 PM

Because they are in the business of selling guns--sometimes, particularly, uncommon or rare ones. Caveat emptor is implied in any transaction involving a Luger--they are under no obligation to do your homework.

A casual glance at Still's Imperial Lugers pp.62-63, 79-80 will reveal just how wrong this gun really is. This, along with the absurdly low asking price, should be enough to warn off any reasonably alert buyer.

(Note, I do not necessarily agree with the 'business is business' stance presented here, but it is the answer to the direct question.)

--Dwight

Ron Wood · 09-19-2006, 10:13 PM

I am guessing it is a consignment piece and Simpson is passing it through without comment. Most Luger enthusiasts will immediately recognize it as a complete fake, but I do think that it should be advertised as such.

Edward Tinker · 09-19-2006, 10:17 PM

I do think they should "comment" on it though... Say, something to the effect of 'controversial" Spandau.... They'd probably get more money for it as a talking / coffee discussion item too....

lugerholsterrepair · 09-19-2006, 10:24 PM

Gentlemen all...I know what everyone thinks about Spandau Lugers. I have probably said this before but I had a Luger Mentor..Howie Nickle. He started collecting Lugers during WW2. He found a Spandau Luger in a pawn shop in 1946, directly he returned from the war. If it were not for this I too might believe what is said about them.
I cannot vouch for the Simpson Luger, I have not handled it, but I would like to. I cannot proove anything but I know what Howie told me....He was 84 years old when he died two years ago. Jerry Burney

Nomadr · 09-19-2006, 10:28 PM

I'm not up on the older lugers. Just for my own education, what is fake...the "Spandau" stamp?
Bob

Edward Tinker · 09-19-2006, 10:30 PM

I won't say fake, because of what Jerry just said,as I do not know.

I will say, controversial toggle.

Spandau toggles have been shown to be "faked" by using a Erfurt toggle, it is beleived by some folks that a handful, maybe 10 spandaus were made at the Spandau armorery, to see if they could make them to help erfurt out during the height of WW!.

ed

Dwight Gruber · 09-19-2006, 11:47 PM

Bob,

By all indications--the receiver power proof and the lack of inspector stamps on the gun--this is originally a DWM.

The Spandau Lugers I have seen pictured are Erfurt origin, and have two extra receiver inspector stamps, as well as some distinctive numbering which this gun lacks. In addition to the questionable toggle stamp.

And with what I have come to understand about how Lugers were manufactured and marked, I can imagine a legitimate--although completely speculative--path for Spandau Lugers existence.

--Dwight

Steinar · 09-20-2006, 05:03 AM

Isn't the toggle (not the center piece) a little too good compared to the rest? ..or can that be right?

dz · 09-20-2006, 09:40 AM

I saw a list of lugers for sale recently and on the list was a Spandau with a 2 digit serial number and a price of $10,500.00. Having no interest I was surprised to see Simpsons price, also taken back by the 10,500. I have no clue about these guns.

Ron Smith · 09-20-2006, 10:04 AM

One thought that I have on this, is that it could end up on the market at some later date. Somewhat "altered" to appear a bit more legitimate.

Ron

Pete Ebbink · 09-20-2006, 11:44 AM

FWIW...Dan Metz in the IL area is currently trying to sell his Spandau.

John Sabato · 09-20-2006, 02:55 PM

For those new folks who do not see the issues with this Luger... notice in this cropped photo and compared with the rest of the Luger that this toggle link's finish is UGLY compared to the rest of the gun.

Even if this is a GENUINE SPANDAU toggle link... I doubt it could pass as a SPANDAU Luger... See Dwight Grubers comments about the inconsistency of proof marks... I think this is a DWM gun that has had the link replaced with either a REAL SPANDAU link that is number matched or just a out-and-out fake...

I agree with George Anderson that Simpson's should have made more comment than they have... if it is a consignment piece, it should be so stated... along with some explanation about why this type of gun is "controversial"... Just my $0.02

ratdog · 09-28-2006, 06:36 AM

They have added it may be fake!!!

friendlyfred · 04-28-2007, 01:15 AM

I own the Spandau (#27) that Ralph Shattuck showed/owned, with the six known (+1 owner unknown at that time) in the mid 90's.
NAPCA had a show in Odessa Texas. Six of the known 7 were displayed together.
See thread: http://forum.lugerforum.com/showthre...hlight=spandau

Pete Ebbink · 04-28-2007, 11:23 AM

Also see these opinions posted in the past at Jan Still's Gun Boards :

http://luger.gunboards.com/topic.asp...=spandau+luger

drbuster · 04-28-2007, 01:05 PM

The "notorious" Spandau on SimpsonLTD's website has now been sold!

Imperial Arms · 04-28-2007, 06:27 PM

When I checked the web site this morning, it mentioned that this item could not be found - I reckon that he pulled it off his the web site.

friendlyfred · 05-04-2007, 10:24 PM

I have found out that Steve Fox in Philly has one with bring back papers.
Here is what a real toggle should look like:

All the best to everyone,

Fred Pack
Wilkeson, WA

09-19-2006, 07:39 PM	#1
SteveM User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Texas Posts: 1,016 Thanks: 94 Thanked 275 Times in 137 Posts	Spandau Anyone? http://www.simpsonltd.com/product_in...oducts_id=5104 I know these are controversial..why would a well known dealer put one of these on their website without a "Buyer Beware" notice? SteveM

09-19-2006, 10:13 PM	#4
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 6,988 Thanks: 1,067 Thanked 5,099 Times in 1,676 Posts	I am guessing it is a consignment piece and Simpson is passing it through without comment. Most Luger enthusiasts will immediately recognize it as a complete fake, but I do think that it should be advertised as such. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

09-19-2006, 10:17 PM	#5
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,915 Thanks: 1,989 Thanked 4,506 Times in 2,080 Posts	I do think they should "comment" on it though... Say, something to the effect of 'controversial" Spandau.... They'd probably get more money for it as a talking / coffee discussion item too.... __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

09-19-2006, 10:24 PM	#6
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,763 Thanks: 4,865 Thanked 3,105 Times in 1,429 Posts	Gentlemen all...I know what everyone thinks about Spandau Lugers. I have probably said this before but I had a Luger Mentor..Howie Nickle. He started collecting Lugers during WW2. He found a Spandau Luger in a pawn shop in 1946, directly he returned from the war. If it were not for this I too might believe what is said about them. I cannot vouch for the Simpson Luger, I have not handled it, but I would like to. I cannot proove anything but I know what Howie told me....He was 84 years old when he died two years ago. Jerry Burney __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 lugerholsterrepair@earthlink.net 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

09-20-2006, 05:03 AM	#10
Steinar User Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 1,538 Thanks: 18 Thanked 36 Times in 21 Posts	Isn't the toggle (not the center piece) a little too good compared to the rest? ..or can that be right? __________________ Previously known as Morgan Kane

09-19-2006, 08:25 PM	#2
George Anderson Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: VA Posts: 3,592 Thanks: 1,773 Thanked 2,527 Times in 786 Posts	I feel that this type of dealing is very disingenuous and probably outright fraud. Simpson offers no explanation of the pistol whatsoever and asks a modest price. It seems that he is making a tacit acknowledgement of the dubious heritage of the pistol through his pricing and standing back hoping someone will buy it. I believe that dealers who do business this way are showing absolute contempt for the collecting community and are working to exploit the new collector or one gun buyer. Please show me where I am wrong and I will retract all that I have written and apologize.

09-19-2006, 08:37 PM	#3
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,890 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,282 Times in 424 Posts	Because they are in the business of selling guns--sometimes, particularly, uncommon or rare ones. Caveat emptor is implied in any transaction involving a Luger--they are under no obligation to do your homework. A casual glance at Still's Imperial Lugers pp.62-63, 79-80 will reveal just how wrong this gun really is. This, along with the absurdly low asking price, should be enough to warn off any reasonably alert buyer. (Note, I do not necessarily agree with the 'business is business' stance presented here, but it is the answer to the direct question.) --Dwight

09-19-2006, 10:28 PM	#7
Nomadr Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 276 Thanks: 16 Thanked 28 Times in 22 Posts	I'm not up on the older lugers. Just for my own education, what is fake...the "Spandau" stamp? Bob

09-19-2006, 10:30 PM	#8
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,915 Thanks: 1,989 Thanked 4,506 Times in 2,080 Posts	I won't say fake, because of what Jerry just said,as I do not know. I will say, controversial toggle. Spandau toggles have been shown to be "faked" by using a Erfurt toggle, it is beleived by some folks that a handful, maybe 10 spandaus were made at the Spandau armorery, to see if they could make them to help erfurt out during the height of WW!. ed

09-19-2006, 11:47 PM	#9
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,890 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,282 Times in 424 Posts	Bob, By all indications--the receiver power proof and the lack of inspector stamps on the gun--this is originally a DWM. The Spandau Lugers I have seen pictured are Erfurt origin, and have two extra receiver inspector stamps, as well as some distinctive numbering which this gun lacks. In addition to the questionable toggle stamp. And with what I have come to understand about how Lugers were manufactured and marked, I can imagine a legitimate--although completely speculative--path for Spandau Lugers existence. --Dwight

09-20-2006, 09:40 AM	#11
dz Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 258 Thanks: 1 Thanked 53 Times in 37 Posts	I saw a list of lugers for sale recently and on the list was a Spandau with a 2 digit serial number and a price of $10,500.00. Having no interest I was surprised to see Simpsons price, also taken back by the 10,500. I have no clue about these guns.

09-20-2006, 10:04 AM	#12
Ron Smith User Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Orygun Posts: 4,243 Thanks: 118 Thanked 245 Times in 150 Posts	One thought that I have on this, is that it could end up on the market at some later date. Somewhat "altered" to appear a bit more legitimate. Ron __________________ I Still Need DWM side plate #49... if anyone runs across a nice one. What ~Rudyard Kipling~ said...

09-20-2006, 11:44 AM	#13
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	FWIW...Dan Metz in the IL area is currently trying to sell his Spandau.

09-20-2006, 02:55 PM	#14
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,150 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	For those new folks who do not see the issues with this Luger... notice in this cropped photo and compared with the rest of the Luger that this toggle link's finish is UGLY compared to the rest of the gun. Even if this is a GENUINE SPANDAU toggle link... I doubt it could pass as a SPANDAU Luger... See Dwight Grubers comments about the inconsistency of proof marks... I think this is a DWM gun that has had the link replaced with either a REAL SPANDAU link that is number matched or just a out-and-out fake... I agree with George Anderson that Simpson's should have made more comment than they have... if it is a consignment piece, it should be so stated... along with some explanation about why this type of gun is "controversial"... Just my $0.02 __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

09-28-2006, 06:36 AM	#15
ratdog User Join Date: Mar 2003 Posts: 147 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	They have added it may be fake!!!

04-28-2007, 01:15 AM	#16
friendlyfred User Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Washington State Posts: 33 Thanks: 5 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I own the Spandau (#27) that Ralph Shattuck showed/owned, with the six known (+1 owner unknown at that time) in the mid 90's. NAPCA had a show in Odessa Texas. Six of the known 7 were displayed together. See thread: http://forum.lugerforum.com/showthre...hlight=spandau

04-28-2007, 11:23 AM	#17
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Also see these opinions posted in the past at Jan Still's Gun Boards : http://luger.gunboards.com/topic.asp...=spandau+luger

04-28-2007, 01:05 PM	#18
drbuster User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: San Mateo, California Posts: 1,432 Thanks: 2 Thanked 71 Times in 56 Posts	The "notorious" Spandau on SimpsonLTD's website has now been sold!

04-28-2007, 06:27 PM	#19
Imperial Arms Banned Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Malta, EU Posts: 579 Thanks: 0 Thanked 7 Times in 7 Posts	When I checked the web site this morning, it mentioned that this item could not be found - I reckon that he pulled it off his the web site.

05-04-2007, 10:24 PM	#20
friendlyfred User Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Washington State Posts: 33 Thanks: 5 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Spandau Luger #27 I have found out that Steve Fox in Philly has one with bring back papers. Here is what a real toggle should look like: All the best to everyone, Fred Pack Wilkeson, WA