Borchardt

Vlim · 11-18-2005, 02:50 PM

Hi,

As we all know, there is no authenticated image of Hugo Borchardt known. After reading Datig's Luger Story and studying a photo of Luger Jr. and Sr. at their Berlin shooting club 'Baerenzwinger', I recognized another person on the photo. This man, Gerhard Bock, wrote a manual on pistol use and shooting in 1911, followed by an update in 1920. He himself is pictured in his book, demonstrating some shooting poses.

Moreover, two other Berlin pistol shooters pose in the book and coincidentally they look very much like two other characters on the photo. This leaves one other, famous Baerenzwinger member on the photo unnamed. It's very tempting, especially since his age seems to be that of Luger sr., that this may well be our ilusive mr. Hugo Borchardt.

Tempting, at least....

From his own book "Moderne Faustfeuerwaffen", Gehard Bock:

W. Fitzkow:

E. Muncheberg:

Ron Wood · 11-18-2005, 03:10 PM

Gerben,
That certainly is an interesting possibility. Glad you thought of it. Might he also be the rather plain looking fellow in the middle?

Vlim · 11-18-2005, 03:13 PM

Ron,

Yes. He changed his name to Hugo Boardcard

Ron Wood · 11-18-2005, 03:27 PM

Now that's clever! You are a better punster than I am.

lugerholsterrepair · 11-18-2005, 03:56 PM

Borchardt and Luger detested each other. Hugo was angry about Luger's supposed theft of the Borchardt model and success of the Luger design. There is little likelyhood that these fellows met on agreeable terms. Not impossible of course but.....Jerry Burney

Vlim · 11-18-2005, 04:56 PM

Hi Jerry,

Sorry, but you're wrong here. Although they had some work related disputes, they actually got along quite well personally.

They lived only a few houses away from each other, their wives would frequently visit each other, even long after both Hugo and Georg had died!

lugerholsterrepair · 11-18-2005, 06:33 PM

I swallow some humble pie! I could swear that's not the story circulating here in the US. Live and learn. I shall always be a student and unfortunately, as soon as I learn it all, I will begin to forget it all...Thanks Gerben. Jerry Burney

Edward Tinker · 11-18-2005, 06:35 PM

Jerry and Gerbin, I have read both accounts... I think it was Walters who stated that they had squabbles and wouldn't talk...

who knows....

Ed

Vlim · 11-18-2005, 06:48 PM

Ed, Jerry,

The best info comes from Datig's revised edition of "the luger pistol", it includes interviews with the Luger family, which I trust a little bit more than John Walter's opinion in this case.

Did you notice on the photo that the only person not holding a luger is the possible Borchardt candidate?

lugerholsterrepair · 11-19-2005, 12:04 AM

Gerben, Borchardt and the cardboard man! I love these period photo's. Thanks for sharing. A lot of history is lost but it brings it back to see these. Jerry Burney

G.W. Gill · 11-19-2005, 01:23 AM

It has to be him. His locks of hair exceeded supply.

Vlim · 11-11-2009, 03:07 PM

An old post revisited. Not to glorify my previous research, but rather to get up the stand and to tell the 'woops, I got it all wrong' story

And who told me I was wrong? Well, August Weiss did, actually. In 1962.

So what did we learn in the mean time:
-Fred Datig 'borrowed' the picture from Gerhard Bock's publication 'Moderne Faustfeuerwaffen und ihr Gebrauch', 3rd edition, published in 1942.

-Unlike Datig, Bock took the trouble to give the proper names of the men pictured and Weiss was kindly enough to point out one of the men and refer to the picture in Bock's book in a letter dating from 1962.

With kind cooperation of Martin Krause (Sauerfan) who provided me with a scan of the page in question, it is now possible to identify the men on the picture, and this time properly:

From left to right:
Georg Luger Senior.
R. Tschoepke.
The cardboard target

and sitting in front of it is Baurat (title) Meyer.
Prof. Rauch.
Heinrich Hoffmann.
Georg Luger Junior.

...well, at least I got some of them right initially (Junior, Senior and Hugo Boardcard aka the target)

worldoftone · 11-11-2009, 03:11 PM

Quote:

The best info comes from Datig's revised edition of "the luger pistol", it includes interviews with the Luger family, which I trust a little bit more than John Walter's opinion in this case.

I was just reading that section of Datig's book last night.

- WOT

Vlim · 11-11-2009, 03:16 PM

Well, in defense of Datig I have to say that his approach was good. He had access to some of the key players of the pre-1945 Parabellum era and he toured Germany and Switzerland extensively. With the access we now have to archive material that comes directly from some of those key players it is possible to retrace the steps of pioneers like Datig.

Although his work is dated in some aspects, especially in the 'contract luger' department, the basic info about DWM and the people involved is very trustworthy.

sheepherder · 11-11-2009, 04:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vlim

Although his work is dated in some aspects, especially in the 'contract luger' department, the basic info about DWM and the people involved is very trustworthy.

He didn't happen to mention the Russian 1906 Luger contract, did he???

cma22inc · 11-11-2009, 04:11 PM

Don't be russian to any conclusions now...

Vlim · 11-11-2009, 04:21 PM

Datig only, correctly, mentions that Russia tested the pistol and that Bulgaria used the pistol.
So nothing exciting, although, but proven nonetheless, unlike some theories

worldoftone · 11-11-2009, 04:49 PM

Quote:

Don't be russian to any conclusions now...

Heh heh

- WOT

saab-bob · 11-11-2009, 05:04 PM

Vlim

Great info

Quick question. What kind of pistols are those gents posing with in the shooting stance pictures?
The third pic might be a luger?

Thanks
Bob

Douglas Jr. · 11-12-2009, 06:12 AM

Vlim,

That's a very interesting story.
Very pleasent to read at morning before going to work.

Thanks,

Douglas

11-18-2005, 02:50 PM	#1
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,053 Thanks: 1,036 Thanked 3,990 Times in 1,205 Posts	Borchardt Hi, As we all know, there is no authenticated image of Hugo Borchardt known. After reading Datig's Luger Story and studying a photo of Luger Jr. and Sr. at their Berlin shooting club 'Baerenzwinger', I recognized another person on the photo. This man, Gerhard Bock, wrote a manual on pistol use and shooting in 1911, followed by an update in 1920. He himself is pictured in his book, demonstrating some shooting poses. Moreover, two other Berlin pistol shooters pose in the book and coincidentally they look very much like two other characters on the photo. This leaves one other, famous Baerenzwinger member on the photo unnamed. It's very tempting, especially since his age seems to be that of Luger sr., that this may well be our ilusive mr. Hugo Borchardt. Tempting, at least.... From his own book "Moderne Faustfeuerwaffen", Gehard Bock: W. Fitzkow: E. Muncheberg: Attached Thumbnails

11-18-2005, 03:10 PM	#2
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,040 Thanks: 1,106 Thanked 5,257 Times in 1,724 Posts	Gerben, That certainly is an interesting possibility. Glad you thought of it. Might he also be the rather plain looking fellow in the middle? __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

11-18-2005, 03:27 PM	#4
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,040 Thanks: 1,106 Thanked 5,257 Times in 1,724 Posts	Now that's clever! You are a better punster than I am. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

11-18-2005, 03:56 PM	#5
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,775 Thanks: 4,995 Thanked 3,133 Times in 1,439 Posts	Borchardt and Luger detested each other. Hugo was angry about Luger's supposed theft of the Borchardt model and success of the Luger design. There is little likelyhood that these fellows met on agreeable terms. Not impossible of course but.....Jerry Burney __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 lugerholsterrepair@earthlink.net 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

11-18-2005, 06:33 PM	#7
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,775 Thanks: 4,995 Thanked 3,133 Times in 1,439 Posts	I swallow some humble pie! I could swear that's not the story circulating here in the US. Live and learn. I shall always be a student and unfortunately, as soon as I learn it all, I will begin to forget it all...Thanks Gerben. Jerry Burney __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 lugerholsterrepair@earthlink.net 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

11-18-2005, 03:13 PM	#3
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,053 Thanks: 1,036 Thanked 3,990 Times in 1,205 Posts	Ron, Yes. He changed his name to Hugo Boardcard

11-18-2005, 04:56 PM	#6
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,053 Thanks: 1,036 Thanked 3,990 Times in 1,205 Posts	Hi Jerry, Sorry, but you're wrong here. Although they had some work related disputes, they actually got along quite well personally. They lived only a few houses away from each other, their wives would frequently visit each other, even long after both Hugo and Georg had died!

11-18-2005, 06:35 PM	#8
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,966 Thanks: 2,066 Thanked 4,595 Times in 2,116 Posts	Jerry and Gerbin, I have read both accounts... I think it was Walters who stated that they had squabbles and wouldn't talk... who knows.... Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

11-18-2005, 06:48 PM	#9
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,053 Thanks: 1,036 Thanked 3,990 Times in 1,205 Posts	Ed, Jerry, The best info comes from Datig's revised edition of "the luger pistol", it includes interviews with the Luger family, which I trust a little bit more than John Walter's opinion in this case. Did you notice on the photo that the only person not holding a luger is the possible Borchardt candidate?

11-19-2005, 12:04 AM	#10
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,775 Thanks: 4,995 Thanked 3,133 Times in 1,439 Posts	Gerben, Borchardt and the cardboard man! I love these period photo's. Thanks for sharing. A lot of history is lost but it brings it back to see these. Jerry Burney __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 lugerholsterrepair@earthlink.net 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

11-19-2005, 01:23 AM	#11
G.W. Gill User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Southeastern USA Posts: 369 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	It has to be him. His locks of hair exceeded supply.

11-11-2009, 03:07 PM	#12
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,053 Thanks: 1,036 Thanked 3,990 Times in 1,205 Posts	An old post revisited. Not to glorify my previous research, but rather to get up the stand and to tell the 'woops, I got it all wrong' story And who told me I was wrong? Well, August Weiss did, actually. In 1962. So what did we learn in the mean time: -Fred Datig 'borrowed' the picture from Gerhard Bock's publication 'Moderne Faustfeuerwaffen und ihr Gebrauch', 3rd edition, published in 1942. -Unlike Datig, Bock took the trouble to give the proper names of the men pictured and Weiss was kindly enough to point out one of the men and refer to the picture in Bock's book in a letter dating from 1962. With kind cooperation of Martin Krause (Sauerfan) who provided me with a scan of the page in question, it is now possible to identify the men on the picture, and this time properly: From left to right: Georg Luger Senior. R. Tschoepke. The cardboard target and sitting in front of it is Baurat (title) Meyer. Prof. Rauch. Heinrich Hoffmann. Georg Luger Junior. ...well, at least I got some of them right initially (Junior, Senior and Hugo Boardcard aka the target)

11-11-2009, 03:16 PM	#14
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,053 Thanks: 1,036 Thanked 3,990 Times in 1,205 Posts	Well, in defense of Datig I have to say that his approach was good. He had access to some of the key players of the pre-1945 Parabellum era and he toured Germany and Switzerland extensively. With the access we now have to archive material that comes directly from some of those key players it is possible to retrace the steps of pioneers like Datig. Although his work is dated in some aspects, especially in the 'contract luger' department, the basic info about DWM and the people involved is very trustworthy.

11-11-2009, 04:11 PM	#16
cma22inc User Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Tampa Bay FL Posts: 93 Thanks: 1 Thanked 5 Times in 4 Posts	Don't be russian to any conclusions now... __________________ Matt A. Tampa, FL (C&R) Collector

11-11-2009, 04:21 PM	#17
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,053 Thanks: 1,036 Thanked 3,990 Times in 1,205 Posts	Datig only, correctly, mentions that Russia tested the pistol and that Bulgaria used the pistol. So nothing exciting, although, but proven nonetheless, unlike some theories

11-11-2009, 05:04 PM	#19
saab-bob User Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: So Cal Posts: 459 Thanks: 774 Thanked 143 Times in 87 Posts	Vlim Great info Quick question. What kind of pistols are those gents posing with in the shooting stance pictures? The third pic might be a luger? Thanks Bob __________________ "I think,therefore I own guns"

11-12-2009, 06:12 AM	#20
Douglas Jr. User Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: South America Posts: 948 Thanks: 598 Thanked 584 Times in 254 Posts	Vlim, That's a very interesting story. Very pleasent to read at morning before going to work. Thanks, Douglas