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-   -   Borchardt (https://forum.lugerforum.com/showthread.php?t=13313)

Vlim 11-18-2005 02:50 PM

Borchardt
 
1 Attachment(s)
Hi,

As we all know, there is no authenticated image of Hugo Borchardt known. After reading Datig's Luger Story and studying a photo of Luger Jr. and Sr. at their Berlin shooting club 'Baerenzwinger', I recognized another person on the photo. This man, Gerhard Bock, wrote a manual on pistol use and shooting in 1911, followed by an update in 1920. He himself is pictured in his book, demonstrating some shooting poses.

Moreover, two other Berlin pistol shooters pose in the book and coincidentally they look very much like two other characters on the photo. This leaves one other, famous Baerenzwinger member on the photo unnamed. It's very tempting, especially since his age seems to be that of Luger sr., that this may well be our ilusive mr. Hugo Borchardt.

Tempting, at least....

From his own book "Moderne Faustfeuerwaffen", Gehard Bock:
http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/bock_1.jpg

W. Fitzkow:
http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/fitzkow.jpg

E. Muncheberg:
http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/muncheberg.jpg

Ron Wood 11-18-2005 03:10 PM

Gerben,
That certainly is an interesting possibility. Glad you thought of it. Might he also be the rather plain looking fellow in the middle?:confused: :D

Vlim 11-18-2005 03:13 PM

Ron,

Yes. He changed his name to Hugo Boardcard :D

Ron Wood 11-18-2005 03:27 PM

Now that's clever! You are a better punster than I am.:bowdown:

lugerholsterrepair 11-18-2005 03:56 PM

Borchardt and Luger detested each other. Hugo was angry about Luger's supposed theft of the Borchardt model and success of the Luger design. There is little likelyhood that these fellows met on agreeable terms. Not impossible of course but.....Jerry Burney

Vlim 11-18-2005 04:56 PM

Hi Jerry,

Sorry, but you're wrong here. Although they had some work related disputes, they actually got along quite well personally.

They lived only a few houses away from each other, their wives would frequently visit each other, even long after both Hugo and Georg had died!

lugerholsterrepair 11-18-2005 06:33 PM

I swallow some humble pie! I could swear that's not the story circulating here in the US. Live and learn. I shall always be a student and unfortunately, as soon as I learn it all, I will begin to forget it all...Thanks Gerben. Jerry Burney

Edward Tinker 11-18-2005 06:35 PM

Jerry and Gerbin, I have read both accounts... I think it was Walters who stated that they had squabbles and wouldn't talk...


who knows....

;)

Ed

Vlim 11-18-2005 06:48 PM

Ed, Jerry,

The best info comes from Datig's revised edition of "the luger pistol", it includes interviews with the Luger family, which I trust a little bit more than John Walter's opinion in this case.

Did you notice on the photo that the only person not holding a luger is the possible Borchardt candidate? ;)

lugerholsterrepair 11-19-2005 12:04 AM

Gerben, Borchardt and the cardboard man! I love these period photo's. Thanks for sharing. A lot of history is lost but it brings it back to see these. Jerry Burney

G.W. Gill 11-19-2005 01:23 AM

It has to be him. His locks of hair exceeded supply.

Vlim 11-11-2009 03:07 PM

An old post revisited. Not to glorify my previous research, but rather to get up the stand and to tell the 'woops, I got it all wrong' story :)

And who told me I was wrong? Well, August Weiss did, actually. In 1962.

So what did we learn in the mean time:
-Fred Datig 'borrowed' the picture from Gerhard Bock's publication 'Moderne Faustfeuerwaffen und ihr Gebrauch', 3rd edition, published in 1942.

-Unlike Datig, Bock took the trouble to give the proper names of the men pictured and Weiss was kindly enough to point out one of the men and refer to the picture in Bock's book in a letter dating from 1962.

With kind cooperation of Martin Krause (Sauerfan) who provided me with a scan of the page in question, it is now possible to identify the men on the picture, and this time properly:

From left to right:
Georg Luger Senior.
R. Tschoepke.
The cardboard target :) and sitting in front of it is Baurat (title) Meyer.
Prof. Rauch.
Heinrich Hoffmann.
Georg Luger Junior.

...well, at least I got some of them right initially (Junior, Senior and Hugo Boardcard aka the target)

worldoftone 11-11-2009 03:11 PM

Quote:

The best info comes from Datig's revised edition of "the luger pistol", it includes interviews with the Luger family, which I trust a little bit more than John Walter's opinion in this case.
I was just reading that section of Datig's book last night.

- WOT

Vlim 11-11-2009 03:16 PM

Well, in defense of Datig I have to say that his approach was good. He had access to some of the key players of the pre-1945 Parabellum era and he toured Germany and Switzerland extensively. With the access we now have to archive material that comes directly from some of those key players it is possible to retrace the steps of pioneers like Datig.

Although his work is dated in some aspects, especially in the 'contract luger' department, the basic info about DWM and the people involved is very trustworthy.

sheepherder 11-11-2009 04:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vlim (Post 168492)
Although his work is dated in some aspects, especially in the 'contract luger' department, the basic info about DWM and the people involved is very trustworthy.

He didn't happen to mention the Russian 1906 Luger contract, did he??? :rolleyes:

cma22inc 11-11-2009 04:11 PM

Don't be russian to any conclusions now...

Vlim 11-11-2009 04:21 PM

Datig only, correctly, mentions that Russia tested the pistol and that Bulgaria used the pistol.
So nothing exciting, although, but proven nonetheless, unlike some theories :)

worldoftone 11-11-2009 04:49 PM

Quote:

Don't be russian to any conclusions now...
Heh heh :)

- WOT

saab-bob 11-11-2009 05:04 PM

Vlim

Great info

Quick question. What kind of pistols are those gents posing with in the shooting stance pictures?
The third pic might be a luger?

Thanks
Bob

Douglas Jr. 11-12-2009 06:12 AM

Vlim,

That's a very interesting story.
Very pleasent to read at morning before going to work.

Thanks,

Douglas


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