1920 Dwm 24 Hours To Make An Offer

Mike B · 07-19-2005, 08:21 PM

Hey, please I need help. I have this Luger for only a few hours. I have been trying to buy this Luger for a long, long time. In fact, it belonged to the man who originally captured it in the big war, but that story will take to much time to tell. What is important is that his widow and son have allowed me to ask the forum membersÃ¢?? opinion of exactly what kind of Luger it is in order that I might make a fair offer. I suggested that I take it home and provide as many pictures as possible to get a good idea of just exactly what it is. So with that, I am asking your help in telling me what it is and the condition. I am fairly certain it is 1920 Police, but I need another opinion to keep everything on an even keel. Almost everything including the magazine is matching except the hold open latch and it seems to be over stamped. You help is greatly appreciated. Sorry about so many pictures !!! Thanks, Mike

Edward Tinker · 07-19-2005, 08:28 PM

Mike, I wouldn't say it is a police? A 1920 Reichswehr marked army is what I would say from an imperial (see the RC markings).

The grips are ww2 replacement, i.e. the Eagle 655...

Value is hard to say, the close ups of the left side make it appear a bit beat, but the not so close ups, make me think $700-$800?

Ed

Edward Tinker · 07-19-2005, 08:36 PM

I'd take it, anything over $600 is fair, although I have paid less for a nice gun the last couple of years, and paid more too!

Numbers all match? What is the magazine have on the bottom? + or a number besides the serial number?

Mike B · 07-19-2005, 08:38 PM

Ed,
I though the RC Crown proof was an arsenal proof? Yes, I caught the grip replacement. Thanks for the input. Mike

Edward Tinker · 07-19-2005, 08:42 PM

see these;

http://forum.lugerforum.com/showthre...light=RC+crown

http://forum.lugerforum.com/showthre...light=RC+crown

http://forum.lugerforum.com/showthre...light=RC+crown

Mike B · 07-19-2005, 08:59 PM

Very interesting. To answer your question about the magazine, there is a proof mark under the number. There is also a scrip "n" not like the lower case letters found on serial numbers. Also the barrel apparently has been changed on this Luger. I would think that is part of some arsenal rework correct?

Dwight Gruber · 07-19-2005, 09:33 PM

Mike,

Definitely a Weimar parts/rework.

The barrel mark is described by Costanzo as a Simson military surplus parts proof, seen on 1933 reworks of WWI military and commercial models. Is there a serial number on the bottom of the barrel, or just the barrel guage? Any other barrel marks?

It is not clear where the "upper trigger guard proof" is actually located; this is crucial to determine the origin of the gun--if it really is on the frame it indicates the frame itself is of Erfurt manufacture. There is no evidence on the frame that the holdopen was added after manufacture (a "white" pin end and an inspector's mark), reinforcing the thought that the frame does not originate with the receiver.

The receiver is a DWM First Issue Military, this is determined by the military inspection and proof marks being on the left side of the receiver. The serial number was added there later. First Issue DWM were numbered in the commercial--hidden--style. Take the gun down and see if there are numbers on the underside of the center toggle link, the left side of the breechblock, and the bottom surface of the receiver locking lug. The numbers, if present, will represent the original serial numbers of these parts. Are there numbers on the bottom edges othe sideplate and takedown lever?

Is there a number stamped on the rear toggle pin? If there is it will help determine when this pistol was reworked.

The absence of a sear safety is a strong indicator that this Luger was not in police service. Actually, the story of its capture might provide a clue as to its origins.

--Dwight

Ron Smith · 07-19-2005, 10:11 PM

Mike, IMO, value would be, as Ed said, $600-$800. The latter being optimistic. I would offer $700 and no more than $750

Ron

Mike B · 07-19-2005, 10:22 PM

Dwight,
Thanks for your very informative reply. There is a serial number on the underside of the barrel. There are no other barrel marks. The proof marks on the trigger guard are on the inside of the curve just below the serial number. They are certainly on the frame. I check all the areas you suggested with a jewelers loupe and there no other number to be found. The hold open latch was over stamped it appears. Where all the other parts are "41" it is "18" but then stamped "41" over the "18"

Mike

Mike B · 07-19-2005, 10:33 PM

Thanks Ron,
Didn't mean to run over you, but I was proof reading my reply to Dwight as you were senting yours I guess. Thanks for your reply, I do appreciate the advice. It is a bit rough around the edges. I took one of my other Lugers out and kinda no comparison. Belive it or not it has been probably 30 years since I have seen this Luger. This ladies husband and I were good friends. He promised to sell it to me years ago, but he passed away before he could make good on his promise. I made up my mind to call his widow and tell her the story and she said come on and get it and make me and offer. So after all thoes years, it comes down this.

Edward Tinker · 07-19-2005, 10:40 PM

Mike, tell her that some knowledgeable collectors on the forum said it was worth between $600-$800 and see what she says. The ball is in her court, and as you were friends, the amount wouldn' rip anyone off, no matter what her reply is.

Ed

You might even print this off, so she can see what us guys think??

Mike B · 07-19-2005, 10:53 PM

Ed,
I am not sure I want it for that much. Do you think any of the other guys out there might?

Edward Tinker · 07-19-2005, 10:57 PM

yes, and e-mailed you, but they'd want it for $600 or so...

Dwight Gruber · 07-19-2005, 11:00 PM

Mike,

Weimar-era reworks are very interesting Lugers. Evidence in steel can just as easily increase the puzzle, as it can help solve it--both seem to be the case with this Luger. An entire collection could be made around these pieces; one can learn a lot from the study of their characteristics.

At this point I don't have any more to add, either to the description or to the value suggestions which ron and Ed have suggested. Good luck, and be sure to let us know how it works out.

--Dwight

Mike B · 07-19-2005, 11:19 PM

Well, thanks to all. I sincerely appreciate the information, insight, advice, and wisdom. Long and short, I don't know what to do. I wish it were a Dutch, then the decision would be easy. That really did happen right here in Lafayette, La. I missed it by one phone call. Ask me tell you the story, it's a good one.

Edward Tinker · 07-19-2005, 11:43 PM

tell us the story

We love to hear how YOU missed something, rather than us, although that has happened to most of us too!

Mike B · 07-20-2005, 12:25 AM

Ed,
It was really a sad story. This Dutch Banner sat in a display case in a gun shop for two weeks with a price tag of $950.00. This gun shop is two blocks from my very good friend's house. He is a gun collector, but not Lugers. He saw the Luger and knew it was special because of the word "Rust". He said he tried to call me a number of times. I really find that hard to believe. Anyway, in comes a legit Luger collector who just about loses his mind and wants to buy the pistol. The shop owner tells him that someone else has first turndown. The someone, turns out is me. Although I never knew about it. An entire week went by and I was never called so they let the other guy have the Dutch for $950.00. An abloutlely mint Dutch Banner.
I finally found out about it much later and did visit the guy and he did let me see it. Nice guy. It is beautiful. He said he would consider taking $4000 maybe. Thanks for listening, Mike

Edward Tinker · 07-20-2005, 02:21 AM

Never had one that nice slip by! I like Dutch guns, so know that one hurt!

Ed

Mike B · 07-20-2005, 08:21 PM

Well, I bought it. Thanks again for the advice and information. Guess it will just take its place with the others for now. While I was there and after I conculded the deal on the Luger, I asked if there were any other war souvenirs. I was told there was one more, but probably not for sale. A new, and I mean new 1911A1 marked "US property" 45 was brought out. This pistol is mint. I asked the lady to please let me know if she decides to sell that one as well. Thanks again guys, Mike

07-19-2005, 08:21 PM	#1
Mike B Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: South Louisiana Posts: 979 Thanks: 1 Thanked 271 Times in 99 Posts	1920 Dwm 24 Hours To Make An Offer Hey, please I need help. I have this Luger for only a few hours. I have been trying to buy this Luger for a long, long time. In fact, it belonged to the man who originally captured it in the big war, but that story will take to much time to tell. What is important is that his widow and son have allowed me to ask the forum membersÃ¢?? opinion of exactly what kind of Luger it is in order that I might make a fair offer. I suggested that I take it home and provide as many pictures as possible to get a good idea of just exactly what it is. So with that, I am asking your help in telling me what it is and the condition. I am fairly certain it is 1920 Police, but I need another opinion to keep everything on an even keel. Almost everything including the magazine is matching except the hold open latch and it seems to be over stamped. You help is greatly appreciated. Sorry about so many pictures !!! Thanks, Mike

07-19-2005, 08:36 PM	#3
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,926 Thanks: 2,014 Thanked 4,523 Times in 2,089 Posts	I'd take it, anything over $600 is fair, although I have paid less for a nice gun the last couple of years, and paid more too! Numbers all match? What is the magazine have on the bottom? + or a number besides the serial number? __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

07-19-2005, 10:11 PM	#8
Ron Smith User Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Orygun Posts: 4,243 Thanks: 118 Thanked 245 Times in 150 Posts	Mike, IMO, value would be, as Ed said, $600-$800. The latter being optimistic. I would offer $700 and no more than $750 Ron __________________ I Still Need DWM side plate #49... if anyone runs across a nice one. What ~Rudyard Kipling~ said...

07-19-2005, 10:40 PM	#11
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,926 Thanks: 2,014 Thanked 4,523 Times in 2,089 Posts	Mike, tell her that some knowledgeable collectors on the forum said it was worth between $600-$800 and see what she says. The ball is in her court, and as you were friends, the amount wouldn' rip anyone off, no matter what her reply is. Ed You might even print this off, so she can see what us guys think?? __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

07-19-2005, 10:57 PM	#13
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,926 Thanks: 2,014 Thanked 4,523 Times in 2,089 Posts	yes, and e-mailed you, but they'd want it for $600 or so... __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

07-19-2005, 08:28 PM	#2
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,926 Thanks: 2,014 Thanked 4,523 Times in 2,089 Posts	Mike, I wouldn't say it is a police? A 1920 Reichswehr marked army is what I would say from an imperial (see the RC markings). The grips are ww2 replacement, i.e. the Eagle 655... Value is hard to say, the close ups of the left side make it appear a bit beat, but the not so close ups, make me think $700-$800? Ed

07-19-2005, 08:38 PM	#4
Mike B Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: South Louisiana Posts: 979 Thanks: 1 Thanked 271 Times in 99 Posts	Ed, I though the RC Crown proof was an arsenal proof? Yes, I caught the grip replacement. Thanks for the input. Mike

07-19-2005, 08:42 PM	#5
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,926 Thanks: 2,014 Thanked 4,523 Times in 2,089 Posts	see these; http://forum.lugerforum.com/showthre...light=RC+crown http://forum.lugerforum.com/showthre...light=RC+crown http://forum.lugerforum.com/showthre...light=RC+crown

07-19-2005, 08:59 PM	#6
Mike B Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: South Louisiana Posts: 979 Thanks: 1 Thanked 271 Times in 99 Posts	Very interesting. To answer your question about the magazine, there is a proof mark under the number. There is also a scrip "n" not like the lower case letters found on serial numbers. Also the barrel apparently has been changed on this Luger. I would think that is part of some arsenal rework correct?

07-19-2005, 09:33 PM	#7
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,893 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,288 Times in 426 Posts	Mike, Definitely a Weimar parts/rework. The barrel mark is described by Costanzo as a Simson military surplus parts proof, seen on 1933 reworks of WWI military and commercial models. Is there a serial number on the bottom of the barrel, or just the barrel guage? Any other barrel marks? It is not clear where the "upper trigger guard proof" is actually located; this is crucial to determine the origin of the gun--if it really is on the frame it indicates the frame itself is of Erfurt manufacture. There is no evidence on the frame that the holdopen was added after manufacture (a "white" pin end and an inspector's mark), reinforcing the thought that the frame does not originate with the receiver. The receiver is a DWM First Issue Military, this is determined by the military inspection and proof marks being on the left side of the receiver. The serial number was added there later. First Issue DWM were numbered in the commercial--hidden--style. Take the gun down and see if there are numbers on the underside of the center toggle link, the left side of the breechblock, and the bottom surface of the receiver locking lug. The numbers, if present, will represent the original serial numbers of these parts. Are there numbers on the bottom edges othe sideplate and takedown lever? Is there a number stamped on the rear toggle pin? If there is it will help determine when this pistol was reworked. The absence of a sear safety is a strong indicator that this Luger was not in police service. Actually, the story of its capture might provide a clue as to its origins. --Dwight

07-19-2005, 10:22 PM	#9
Mike B Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: South Louisiana Posts: 979 Thanks: 1 Thanked 271 Times in 99 Posts	Dwight, Thanks for your very informative reply. There is a serial number on the underside of the barrel. There are no other barrel marks. The proof marks on the trigger guard are on the inside of the curve just below the serial number. They are certainly on the frame. I check all the areas you suggested with a jewelers loupe and there no other number to be found. The hold open latch was over stamped it appears. Where all the other parts are "41" it is "18" but then stamped "41" over the "18" Mike

07-19-2005, 10:33 PM	#10
Mike B Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: South Louisiana Posts: 979 Thanks: 1 Thanked 271 Times in 99 Posts	Thanks Ron, Didn't mean to run over you, but I was proof reading my reply to Dwight as you were senting yours I guess. Thanks for your reply, I do appreciate the advice. It is a bit rough around the edges. I took one of my other Lugers out and kinda no comparison. Belive it or not it has been probably 30 years since I have seen this Luger. This ladies husband and I were good friends. He promised to sell it to me years ago, but he passed away before he could make good on his promise. I made up my mind to call his widow and tell her the story and she said come on and get it and make me and offer. So after all thoes years, it comes down this.

07-19-2005, 10:53 PM	#12
Mike B Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: South Louisiana Posts: 979 Thanks: 1 Thanked 271 Times in 99 Posts	Ed, I am not sure I want it for that much. Do you think any of the other guys out there might?

07-19-2005, 11:00 PM	#14
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,893 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,288 Times in 426 Posts	Mike, Weimar-era reworks are very interesting Lugers. Evidence in steel can just as easily increase the puzzle, as it can help solve it--both seem to be the case with this Luger. An entire collection could be made around these pieces; one can learn a lot from the study of their characteristics. At this point I don't have any more to add, either to the description or to the value suggestions which ron and Ed have suggested. Good luck, and be sure to let us know how it works out. --Dwight

07-19-2005, 11:19 PM	#15
Mike B Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: South Louisiana Posts: 979 Thanks: 1 Thanked 271 Times in 99 Posts	Well, thanks to all. I sincerely appreciate the information, insight, advice, and wisdom. Long and short, I don't know what to do. I wish it were a Dutch, then the decision would be easy. That really did happen right here in Lafayette, La. I missed it by one phone call. Ask me tell you the story, it's a good one.

07-19-2005, 11:43 PM	#16
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,926 Thanks: 2,014 Thanked 4,523 Times in 2,089 Posts	tell us the story We love to hear how YOU missed something, rather than us, although that has happened to most of us too! __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

07-20-2005, 12:25 AM	#17
Mike B Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: South Louisiana Posts: 979 Thanks: 1 Thanked 271 Times in 99 Posts	Ed, It was really a sad story. This Dutch Banner sat in a display case in a gun shop for two weeks with a price tag of $950.00. This gun shop is two blocks from my very good friend's house. He is a gun collector, but not Lugers. He saw the Luger and knew it was special because of the word "Rust". He said he tried to call me a number of times. I really find that hard to believe. Anyway, in comes a legit Luger collector who just about loses his mind and wants to buy the pistol. The shop owner tells him that someone else has first turndown. The someone, turns out is me. Although I never knew about it. An entire week went by and I was never called so they let the other guy have the Dutch for $950.00. An abloutlely mint Dutch Banner. I finally found out about it much later and did visit the guy and he did let me see it. Nice guy. It is beautiful. He said he would consider taking $4000 maybe. Thanks for listening, Mike

07-20-2005, 02:21 AM	#18
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,926 Thanks: 2,014 Thanked 4,523 Times in 2,089 Posts	Never had one that nice slip by! I like Dutch guns, so know that one hurt! Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

07-20-2005, 08:21 PM	#19
Mike B Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: South Louisiana Posts: 979 Thanks: 1 Thanked 271 Times in 99 Posts	Well, I bought it. Thanks again for the advice and information. Guess it will just take its place with the others for now. While I was there and after I conculded the deal on the Luger, I asked if there were any other war souvenirs. I was told there was one more, but probably not for sale. A new, and I mean new 1911A1 marked "US property" 45 was brought out. This pistol is mint. I asked the lady to please let me know if she decides to sell that one as well. Thanks again guys, Mike