dont know what i have?

vtprairie03 · 02-07-2005, 08:42 PM

ok, i had a 9mm luger handed down to me last month from my father in law and i looked in my shwing gun catalog and i cannot determine which model i have. the top of the chamber near the barrel is stamped 1911. the serial number is 23 on the back of the gun and in two places on the left side of the gun. the safety has GESICHERT written on the top of the safety switch not the bottom and there is an emblem on the top of the chamber like the one on a 1906 russian contract in the catalog. not the rifle emblem the other one. there is also three engravings on the right side of the barrel that i have trouble making out. the first one looks like an F according to the photos on this sight. the middle one looks like an H with lines on the top and bottom of it and the last one is the eagle emblem. all three have crowns above them. the gun has the holster and extra clip with it and the gun is in emaculate condition. i just cannot determine what model this gun is and what the value might be. i have no intention of selling, just interested in the value and model. i have pictures as well if it might help but im not sure as to the quality of the pictures as far as showing the emblems and engravings. i also have a MENZ rifle bolt action single shot that was from the same time period, if someone could tell me who i can talk to about it or a web site i could look into. any help on either item would be of great help. thanks

Ron Wood · 02-07-2005, 09:47 PM

Is the emblem on top of the chamber or on the center section of the toggle? A Luger with a date and an emblem on the chamber would be quite unusual. The full serial number will be found on the front of the frame and the bottom of the barrel. The three "engravings" on the right side are on the receiver, and are inspectors marks and the eagle firing proof. It sounds like you have a 1908 pattern military Luger dated 1911. Does it have a stock lug at the bottom rear part of the grip? Photos will help a lot. Condition goes a long way in determining value.

Edward Tinker · 02-07-2005, 11:51 PM

Shawn, welcome to the forum

Pictures would help a lot, but first, go through the assorted postings here on the forum, and you can get a good idea of what the gun might be.

Ed

vtprairie03 · 02-08-2005, 05:35 PM

i went thru some of the photos and the emblem markings this weekend and none of them match. i have a few photos but i was using a 4.1 mp. and i could never zoom in close enough to get focused without distorting the picture. the date and emblem or engraving is on the very top of the gun. the date is out toward the barrel and the engraving is in the dead center of the gun ontop. is there instructions on posting pictures to help me attach them or do i just attach it to my messege and i will post the pics this evening.

vtprairie03 · 02-10-2005, 04:17 PM

if you could give me an email address to send it to i can send them to you that way, ive been trying to downsize the files to meet the requirements of the forum but i cant squeeze the pictures down that small and still be able to make out the engravings and emblems on the pistol. if you can help me with this i can post them on here.

Edward Tinker · 02-11-2005, 09:07 PM

Pictures added for Shawn,

Ed

Ron Wood · 02-11-2005, 10:46 PM

You have what appears to be a very nice model 1908 pattern military Luger manufactured in 1911 and made by DWM, Deutche Waffen und Munitions Fabriken.

RockinWR · 02-11-2005, 10:55 PM

Shawn,
* I believe Ron has hit the nail on the head. A DWM 1908 model made in 1911 for the Army.
* From the pictures, a very nice looking example. Have you identified the full S/N and suffix yet ("The full serial number will be found on the front of the frame and the bottom of the barrel.")?? I'd hazard a guess you'll find a small, lower case "c" or "d" suffix underneath the S/N digits of this example. The suffix is considered a legal part of the S/N.
* Properly marked in the commercial style, you will find the last two digits(23) on the underside of most small parts including inside the grips. Also, a few parts inside (trigger, holdopen if present, receiver lug, firing pin) will bear the same last two numbers.
* Any marking on the holster? Could be on the back between the belt loops, on the front along the edge near the pull-up strap knot, on the inside of the bucket top, etc. If you find some, please post & we'll try to ID the maker and year of holster production. Could be die impression stamped marks or ink/rubber stamped markings(usually inside).
* You have what appears to be a nice, collectable grade, WW1 Army Luger. Trust you can appreciate the fine care given to this example over the 93 years of its existence.
Respectfully,
Bob

PS: Ron, you are one quick draw post ahead pardner!! Hope the repetition wasn't too redundant.
Bob:

Ron Wood · 02-11-2005, 11:10 PM

Bob,
Happens to me all the time. I compose a nice long, detailed response like yours and someone slips in a two line zinger just ahead of me.

Ron Smith · 02-11-2005, 11:39 PM

That is one sweet 1911. I think the cleanest I have ever seen outside of Jan's books.
Congratulations, Ron

Vlim · 02-12-2005, 01:12 PM

Shawn,

I read your first post and was a bit puzzled about the engraving, but now I get it.

The scrolled engraving on the top are actually the letters D, W and M. On some contract guns, where crests or other engravings were placed on the toggle (the bit where the DWM is stamped on, not engraved), the DWM logo was placed on the chamber, just before the barrel.

Funnily enough DWM (Deutsche Waffen- und Munitionsfabriken) never registered their fancy DWM logo, but instead registered the DWM logo that I use as my 'avatar' (the image on the left).

vtprairie03 · 02-12-2005, 11:46 PM

i appreciate the replies. the gun has been well taken care of in the past. it was handed down to me a few weeks ago from my father in law who has had it for about 35 years. his father got it while serving in the war and when i inspected it two weeks ago it had a little piece of paper tucked away in the holster. i took it out and unfolded it to find the infantry division and other information about the time of his service on the paper. my father in law had no idea it was in there. infact the only time the gun has been out of the case has been to clean it every couple of months. my father in law told me the gun has not been fired since it was brought home from the war. what would be an appraised value of the gun in that condition. im looking to add it to my insurance policies with my other collection and have never dealt with items like this before.

Michigan Gunner · 04-07-2005, 08:50 PM

This is a very interesting post for me. My Luger is identical except the chamber date is 1910.

Neat!

Lock and Load!

turk188 · 04-10-2005, 10:10 PM

I just picked up a Luger almost identical to the one mentioned here. It has a small amount of pitting do to lack of care (mostly under the grips. The serial number is 28,358 (8358B) 1916 production marked. I am happy to say that full disassembly shows every numbered part has matching numbers. I have two questions one is identification I know it's a DWM but there are additional numbers. On the front of the grip is stamped SDIII 448 the numbers are X'ed out, any ideas? Also the finish is extremely worn and I've thought about having it re-blued. Oh and one last one I'm sure this is normal but I haven't seen it mentioned but the loaded chamber indicator has "geladen" stamped into it.

Ron Smith · 04-10-2005, 10:37 PM

Hi John, Welcome to the forum. The markings are Prussian police unit markings.

S= SchÃ?Â¼tzenpolitzei (Municipal or Protective Police)
D= DÃ?Â¼sseldorf (City)
III= Command 3 (Precinct)
448= Weapon number

Does it have a sear safety? A small flat doglegged bar riveted to the top lift side of the receiver, that presses down on the top of the side plate?

Is there a small notch at the top leading edge of the left grip, or a 1/4" hole drilled in the frame behind the side plate? If so, this is a provision for a magazine safety.

These additional safeties were mandated by police orders. To keep the flatfeet from shooting each other by accident, while playing quickdraw in the squadroom. Can you post photos?
Ron

Edward Tinker · 04-10-2005, 11:06 PM

John, welcome to the forum!

Hey, start your own thread, and if you can provide photos, it will be great to talk about.

Extremly worn depends... If very bad, sure, but I bet there might be a few folks who would trade a reble for a non-reblue?

Is it all matching?

ed

02-07-2005, 08:42 PM	#1
vtprairie03 New User Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: southern, ohio Posts: 4 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	dont know what i have? ok, i had a 9mm luger handed down to me last month from my father in law and i looked in my shwing gun catalog and i cannot determine which model i have. the top of the chamber near the barrel is stamped 1911. the serial number is 23 on the back of the gun and in two places on the left side of the gun. the safety has GESICHERT written on the top of the safety switch not the bottom and there is an emblem on the top of the chamber like the one on a 1906 russian contract in the catalog. not the rifle emblem the other one. there is also three engravings on the right side of the barrel that i have trouble making out. the first one looks like an F according to the photos on this sight. the middle one looks like an H with lines on the top and bottom of it and the last one is the eagle emblem. all three have crowns above them. the gun has the holster and extra clip with it and the gun is in emaculate condition. i just cannot determine what model this gun is and what the value might be. i have no intention of selling, just interested in the value and model. i have pictures as well if it might help but im not sure as to the quality of the pictures as far as showing the emblems and engravings. i also have a MENZ rifle bolt action single shot that was from the same time period, if someone could tell me who i can talk to about it or a web site i could look into. any help on either item would be of great help. thanks

02-07-2005, 09:47 PM	#2
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,040 Thanks: 1,106 Thanked 5,257 Times in 1,724 Posts	Is the emblem on top of the chamber or on the center section of the toggle? A Luger with a date and an emblem on the chamber would be quite unusual. The full serial number will be found on the front of the frame and the bottom of the barrel. The three "engravings" on the right side are on the receiver, and are inspectors marks and the eagle firing proof. It sounds like you have a 1908 pattern military Luger dated 1911. Does it have a stock lug at the bottom rear part of the grip? Photos will help a lot. Condition goes a long way in determining value. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

02-07-2005, 11:51 PM	#3
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,966 Thanks: 2,066 Thanked 4,595 Times in 2,116 Posts	Shawn, welcome to the forum Pictures would help a lot, but first, go through the assorted postings here on the forum, and you can get a good idea of what the gun might be. Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

02-11-2005, 09:07 PM	#6
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,966 Thanks: 2,066 Thanked 4,595 Times in 2,116 Posts	Pictures added for Shawn, Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

02-11-2005, 10:46 PM	#7
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,040 Thanks: 1,106 Thanked 5,257 Times in 1,724 Posts	You have what appears to be a very nice model 1908 pattern military Luger manufactured in 1911 and made by DWM, Deutche Waffen und Munitions Fabriken. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

02-08-2005, 05:35 PM	#4
vtprairie03 New User Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: southern, ohio Posts: 4 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	i went thru some of the photos and the emblem markings this weekend and none of them match. i have a few photos but i was using a 4.1 mp. and i could never zoom in close enough to get focused without distorting the picture. the date and emblem or engraving is on the very top of the gun. the date is out toward the barrel and the engraving is in the dead center of the gun ontop. is there instructions on posting pictures to help me attach them or do i just attach it to my messege and i will post the pics this evening.

02-10-2005, 04:17 PM	#5
vtprairie03 New User Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: southern, ohio Posts: 4 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	if you could give me an email address to send it to i can send them to you that way, ive been trying to downsize the files to meet the requirements of the forum but i cant squeeze the pictures down that small and still be able to make out the engravings and emblems on the pistol. if you can help me with this i can post them on here.

02-11-2005, 10:55 PM	#8
RockinWR User Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: D/FW, Tx Posts: 279 Thanks: 109 Thanked 31 Times in 16 Posts	Shawn, * I believe Ron has hit the nail on the head. A DWM 1908 model made in 1911 for the Army. * From the pictures, a very nice looking example. Have you identified the full S/N and suffix yet ("The full serial number will be found on the front of the frame and the bottom of the barrel.")?? I'd hazard a guess you'll find a small, lower case "c" or "d" suffix underneath the S/N digits of this example. The suffix is considered a legal part of the S/N. * Properly marked in the commercial style, you will find the last two digits(23) on the underside of most small parts including inside the grips. Also, a few parts inside (trigger, holdopen if present, receiver lug, firing pin) will bear the same last two numbers. * Any marking on the holster? Could be on the back between the belt loops, on the front along the edge near the pull-up strap knot, on the inside of the bucket top, etc. If you find some, please post & we'll try to ID the maker and year of holster production. Could be die impression stamped marks or ink/rubber stamped markings(usually inside). * You have what appears to be a nice, collectable grade, WW1 Army Luger. Trust you can appreciate the fine care given to this example over the 93 years of its existence. Respectfully, Bob PS: Ron, you are one quick draw post ahead pardner!! Hope the repetition wasn't too redundant. Bob:

02-11-2005, 11:10 PM	#9
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,040 Thanks: 1,106 Thanked 5,257 Times in 1,724 Posts	Bob, Happens to me all the time. I compose a nice long, detailed response like yours and someone slips in a two line zinger just ahead of me. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

02-11-2005, 11:39 PM	#10
Ron Smith User Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Orygun Posts: 4,243 Thanks: 118 Thanked 245 Times in 150 Posts	That is one sweet 1911. I think the cleanest I have ever seen outside of Jan's books. Congratulations, Ron __________________ I Still Need DWM side plate #49... if anyone runs across a nice one. What ~Rudyard Kipling~ said...

02-12-2005, 01:12 PM	#11
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,053 Thanks: 1,036 Thanked 3,990 Times in 1,205 Posts	Shawn, I read your first post and was a bit puzzled about the engraving, but now I get it. The scrolled engraving on the top are actually the letters D, W and M. On some contract guns, where crests or other engravings were placed on the toggle (the bit where the DWM is stamped on, not engraved), the DWM logo was placed on the chamber, just before the barrel. Funnily enough DWM (Deutsche Waffen- und Munitionsfabriken) never registered their fancy DWM logo, but instead registered the DWM logo that I use as my 'avatar' (the image on the left).

02-12-2005, 11:46 PM	#12
vtprairie03 New User Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: southern, ohio Posts: 4 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	i appreciate the replies. the gun has been well taken care of in the past. it was handed down to me a few weeks ago from my father in law who has had it for about 35 years. his father got it while serving in the war and when i inspected it two weeks ago it had a little piece of paper tucked away in the holster. i took it out and unfolded it to find the infantry division and other information about the time of his service on the paper. my father in law had no idea it was in there. infact the only time the gun has been out of the case has been to clean it every couple of months. my father in law told me the gun has not been fired since it was brought home from the war. what would be an appraised value of the gun in that condition. im looking to add it to my insurance policies with my other collection and have never dealt with items like this before.

04-07-2005, 08:50 PM	#13
Michigan Gunner User Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Michigan, on the border Posts: 75 Thanks: 2 Thanked 15 Times in 9 Posts	This is a very interesting post for me. My Luger is identical except the chamber date is 1910. Neat! Lock and Load!

04-10-2005, 10:10 PM	#14
turk188 New User Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Pensacola, FL Posts: 1 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I just picked up a Luger almost identical to the one mentioned here. It has a small amount of pitting do to lack of care (mostly under the grips. The serial number is 28,358 (8358B) 1916 production marked. I am happy to say that full disassembly shows every numbered part has matching numbers. I have two questions one is identification I know it's a DWM but there are additional numbers. On the front of the grip is stamped SDIII 448 the numbers are X'ed out, any ideas? Also the finish is extremely worn and I've thought about having it re-blued. Oh and one last one I'm sure this is normal but I haven't seen it mentioned but the loaded chamber indicator has "geladen" stamped into it.

04-10-2005, 10:37 PM	#15
Ron Smith User Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Orygun Posts: 4,243 Thanks: 118 Thanked 245 Times in 150 Posts	Hi John, Welcome to the forum. The markings are Prussian police unit markings. S= SchÃ?Â¼tzenpolitzei (Municipal or Protective Police) D= DÃ?Â¼sseldorf (City) III= Command 3 (Precinct) 448= Weapon number Does it have a sear safety? A small flat doglegged bar riveted to the top lift side of the receiver, that presses down on the top of the side plate? Is there a small notch at the top leading edge of the left grip, or a 1/4" hole drilled in the frame behind the side plate? If so, this is a provision for a magazine safety. These additional safeties were mandated by police orders. To keep the flatfeet from shooting each other by accident, while playing quickdraw in the squadroom. Can you post photos? Ron __________________ I Still Need DWM side plate #49... if anyone runs across a nice one. What ~Rudyard Kipling~ said...

04-10-2005, 11:06 PM	#16
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,966 Thanks: 2,066 Thanked 4,595 Times in 2,116 Posts	John, welcome to the forum! Hey, start your own thread, and if you can provide photos, it will be great to talk about. Extremly worn depends... If very bad, sure, but I bet there might be a few folks who would trade a reble for a non-reblue? Is it all matching? ed