Interesting possible test-1900?

Levallois · 04-23-2008, 03:43 PM

Let me first say that I'm just trying to learn about these early lugers and not trying to "flame" anyone or their gun. The following is on Gunbroker and based on my reading here and on Jan's site, it is probably an "out-of-range" 1900 AE test-luger.

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...?Item=97936762

It has been restored - looks real nice - but what does that do to the value? I asked this question in another topic about the restoration "run-of-the-mill" lugers and the consensus was that it dropped the value by half and made them a nice shooter. Does the same go for this gun and why or why not? Would you have such a gun in your collection or would you save your money for a worn original? Thank you for your time.

John

Edward Tinker · 04-23-2008, 04:40 PM

John, I have two lugers that fall within the "accepted" range (6100-7100), but new thinking is that unless they fall within the Bannerman range, they are "suspect" and could or could not be Test Lugers.

The "nice shooter" comment is not exactly as I see it. The more 'rare" an item is, the less it is affected by being "restored"; that said, I still believe in the half theory, that a restored gun will sell for half of what a non-restored but still reasonablly nice gun. i.e. in my opinion, my Fat barrel that I sold for under $3600 should have been worth around $8000 in 80% shape if not reblued...

Ed

alvin · 04-24-2008, 08:46 AM

My general feeling.... you don't have to be rich to buy a $8,000 original, but you have to be rich to buy a $4,000 restored. Paradoxical.

Ron Smith · 04-24-2008, 09:20 AM

Ed's pretty much on the mark. I've sold two expertly restored Lugers for just about half what they would have been worth in original condition.

Ron

Levallois · 04-24-2008, 11:00 AM

So what's an unrestored test-luger worth nowadays? The cheapest one that I could find on the internet was $6000. I can't believe the restored one on Gunbroker is worth $3000! Alvin's comment hits home along with "what other nice unrestored lugers could I buy for $3000?" Man, that's a problem I'd like to have.

John

Edward Tinker · 04-24-2008, 11:04 AM

it is smarter to save up, research, buy books, then buy a nice example of whatever interests you.

Jan Stills new Central powers has the latest info on Test Lugers. I think the 6100-7100 numbering system will stay with us ofr a long time, but the bannerman numbers are the ones that will eventually be worth more.

A test in "okay" shape in the 6100-7100 range will be $2500 +, while one in the bannerman range I would guess would be another $1000 and up depending on condition, with $4500-$6000 not surprising me in the least.

ed

Dwight Gruber · 04-24-2008, 03:38 PM

The persistence of the 6100-7100 approximation bugs me. From the Bannerman numbers the series goes at least to 7147.

--Dwight

Ron Wood · 04-24-2008, 04:24 PM

Dwight and I are in the same camp regarding the myth of the 6100-1700 range. There is no doubt in my mind that the serial numbers of the US Test Trial Lugers did not run contiguously from 6100-7100. The Luger on Gunbroker with the number 7176 is only 28 away from the highest Bannerman number and, in my opinion, has a finite possibility of being a test piece. I am reluctant to toss out a properly marked Luger between 7100 and 7199. For a gun numbered beyond that point I think the probability of being in the trials diminishes considerably.

Levallois · 04-24-2008, 11:28 PM

It's out of the Bannerman range but still a possible test-luger? So, where does that leave it in terms of collectability? Is it still a collectable luger of lesser value because it has been restored or a restored luger that used to be potentially collectable? Wow, try saying that five times really fast.

Thanks!

John

alvin · 04-25-2008, 01:05 AM

Why didn't Uncle Sam dump all 1,000 guns to Bannerman for sale to recover more tax payer's $$ ..... one theory saying "The 230 pistols whose serial numbers are not shown [in Bannerman] were probably rendered useless in various tests. It is quite possible however that a small number of these unrecorded specimens came into private hands."

http://www.nps.gov/spar/historycultu...r%20ranges.doc

If this is correct, the chance of a gun falling out of Bannerman and being a TE is not high.... unless it's broken. Or, it's not broken and it's in good shape, then its originality becomes a big question mark, because it's supposed to be "useless".

Ron Wood · 04-25-2008, 01:48 AM

I would be a little reluctant to draw too many conclusions from an article that starts out with the title "Lugar" Pistol Serial Number Ranges!

Note that there were 780 pistols in the Bannerman purchase, not 770 as the article states.

Also remember that 50 test pieces in good condition were swapped for the 50 Cartridge Counters. These 50 were turned over to a US distributor for disposition. They weren't included in the Bannerman purchase and there is no record of their serial numbers. But they are legitimate test pieces and they are in the mix.

Therefore, we have 220 not in the Bannerman purchase minus 50 swapped out, leaving us with 170 guns that were either lost, damaged beyond use, stolen or given away.

alvin · 04-25-2008, 01:36 PM

Ron -- Thanks a lot for the analysis. I heard that you have an article in Jan's book (?)..... I still miss a few books, would like to order one.

John -- Good luck in searching! More and more, I feel reading books and searching is more fun than holding a gun in hands. Of course, finally still need a few samples.

04-23-2008, 03:43 PM	#1
Levallois User Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 69 Thanks: 1 Thanked 8 Times in 2 Posts	Interesting possible test-1900? Let me first say that I'm just trying to learn about these early lugers and not trying to "flame" anyone or their gun. The following is on Gunbroker and based on my reading here and on Jan's site, it is probably an "out-of-range" 1900 AE test-luger. http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...?Item=97936762 It has been restored - looks real nice - but what does that do to the value? I asked this question in another topic about the restoration "run-of-the-mill" lugers and the consensus was that it dropped the value by half and made them a nice shooter. Does the same go for this gun and why or why not? Would you have such a gun in your collection or would you save your money for a worn original? Thank you for your time. John

04-23-2008, 04:40 PM	#2
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,915 Thanks: 1,989 Thanked 4,506 Times in 2,080 Posts	John, I have two lugers that fall within the "accepted" range (6100-7100), but new thinking is that unless they fall within the Bannerman range, they are "suspect" and could or could not be Test Lugers. The "nice shooter" comment is not exactly as I see it. The more 'rare" an item is, the less it is affected by being "restored"; that said, I still believe in the half theory, that a restored gun will sell for half of what a non-restored but still reasonablly nice gun. i.e. in my opinion, my Fat barrel that I sold for under $3600 should have been worth around $8000 in 80% shape if not reblued... Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

04-24-2008, 09:20 AM	#4
Ron Smith User Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Orygun Posts: 4,243 Thanks: 118 Thanked 245 Times in 150 Posts	Ed's pretty much on the mark. I've sold two expertly restored Lugers for just about half what they would have been worth in original condition. Ron __________________ I Still Need DWM side plate #49... if anyone runs across a nice one. What ~Rudyard Kipling~ said...

04-24-2008, 11:04 AM	#6
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,915 Thanks: 1,989 Thanked 4,506 Times in 2,080 Posts	it is smarter to save up, research, buy books, then buy a nice example of whatever interests you. Jan Stills new Central powers has the latest info on Test Lugers. I think the 6100-7100 numbering system will stay with us ofr a long time, but the bannerman numbers are the ones that will eventually be worth more. A test in "okay" shape in the 6100-7100 range will be $2500 +, while one in the bannerman range I would guess would be another $1000 and up depending on condition, with $4500-$6000 not surprising me in the least. ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

04-24-2008, 04:24 PM	#8
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 6,988 Thanks: 1,067 Thanked 5,099 Times in 1,676 Posts	Dwight and I are in the same camp regarding the myth of the 6100-1700 range. There is no doubt in my mind that the serial numbers of the US Test Trial Lugers did not run contiguously from 6100-7100. The Luger on Gunbroker with the number 7176 is only 28 away from the highest Bannerman number and, in my opinion, has a finite possibility of being a test piece. I am reluctant to toss out a properly marked Luger between 7100 and 7199. For a gun numbered beyond that point I think the probability of being in the trials diminishes considerably. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

04-24-2008, 08:46 AM	#3
alvin User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: US Posts: 3,843 Thanks: 132 Thanked 729 Times in 438 Posts	My general feeling.... you don't have to be rich to buy a $8,000 original, but you have to be rich to buy a $4,000 restored. Paradoxical.

04-24-2008, 11:00 AM	#5
Levallois User Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 69 Thanks: 1 Thanked 8 Times in 2 Posts	So what's an unrestored test-luger worth nowadays? The cheapest one that I could find on the internet was $6000. I can't believe the restored one on Gunbroker is worth $3000! Alvin's comment hits home along with "what other nice unrestored lugers could I buy for $3000?" Man, that's a problem I'd like to have. John

04-24-2008, 03:38 PM	#7
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,890 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,282 Times in 424 Posts	The persistence of the 6100-7100 approximation bugs me. From the Bannerman numbers the series goes at least to 7147. --Dwight

04-24-2008, 11:28 PM	#9
Levallois User Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 69 Thanks: 1 Thanked 8 Times in 2 Posts	It's out of the Bannerman range but still a possible test-luger? So, where does that leave it in terms of collectability? Is it still a collectable luger of lesser value because it has been restored or a restored luger that used to be potentially collectable? Wow, try saying that five times really fast. Thanks! John

04-25-2008, 01:05 AM	#10
alvin User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: US Posts: 3,843 Thanks: 132 Thanked 729 Times in 438 Posts	Why didn't Uncle Sam dump all 1,000 guns to Bannerman for sale to recover more tax payer's $$ ..... one theory saying "The 230 pistols whose serial numbers are not shown [in Bannerman] were probably rendered useless in various tests. It is quite possible however that a small number of these unrecorded specimens came into private hands." http://www.nps.gov/spar/historycultu...r%20ranges.doc If this is correct, the chance of a gun falling out of Bannerman and being a TE is not high.... unless it's broken. Or, it's not broken and it's in good shape, then its originality becomes a big question mark, because it's supposed to be "useless".

04-25-2008, 01:48 AM	#11
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 6,988 Thanks: 1,067 Thanked 5,099 Times in 1,676 Posts	I would be a little reluctant to draw too many conclusions from an article that starts out with the title "Lugar" Pistol Serial Number Ranges! Note that there were 780 pistols in the Bannerman purchase, not 770 as the article states. Also remember that 50 test pieces in good condition were swapped for the 50 Cartridge Counters. These 50 were turned over to a US distributor for disposition. They weren't included in the Bannerman purchase and there is no record of their serial numbers. But they are legitimate test pieces and they are in the mix. Therefore, we have 220 not in the Bannerman purchase minus 50 swapped out, leaving us with 170 guns that were either lost, damaged beyond use, stolen or given away. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

04-25-2008, 01:36 PM	#12
alvin User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: US Posts: 3,843 Thanks: 132 Thanked 729 Times in 438 Posts	Ron -- Thanks a lot for the analysis. I heard that you have an article in Jan's book (?)..... I still miss a few books, would like to order one. John -- Good luck in searching! More and more, I feel reading books and searching is more fun than holding a gun in hands. Of course, finally still need a few samples.