What is a Sneak Luger?

Rev03FFL · 03-20-2006, 03:53 PM

There is an interesting Luger on GunBroker, advertised as a "Sneak" Luger.

I looked it up in Kenyon's book - has a whole chapter on these.

This one appears to have a sear safety that has been removed. There are 2 small holes drilled over the sear and on top of the side plate. Would this be something I would expect to see on such a Luger?

Also there is a unit marking "LKZ 99" on the front gripstrap. Anyone know what this means?

So are these Sneak Lugers more or less collectable than others? Without many of the usual markings, are they more susceptable to fakery?

The markings on this one look correct based on Kenyon's book, and it appears to be fairly represented to my untrained eyes. Though I don't like the emphasis on the "1892". Seems like someone unfamiliar with Lugers might think this is a date, not a s/n.

The link is:

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...?Item=44967937

Not that interested in bidding, just wanted to learn a bit more about these Sneaks.

Thanks

policeluger · 03-20-2006, 04:18 PM

Just got a beaut of a sneak yesterday....well at least the deal was made yesterday....and yes very collectable, this however as you noted is missing the police sear safety, the 2 holes you see are for the safety, one is where it was riveted...on the rear and the forward hole is where the safety sticks in....right?, you know there is a sharp point the blocks the sear....everthing is susceptible to fakery but this one looks nice and correct, police unit marked L=rural police KZ=Koblenz, the city where issued and "99" is weapon 99 in the dept....not Luger number 99 just weapon 99.....hope this helps

John Sabato · 03-20-2006, 05:08 PM

Howard, thanks for telling everyone what they should look like, but I think the answer that Rev was looking for is that they are Lugers that were produced without accountability under the Treaty of Versailles.... after WW1. In other words, they snuck them through production without the allies knowing about it.

Edward Tinker · 03-20-2006, 05:19 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by John Sabato
...but I think the answer that Rev was looking for is that they are Lugers that were produced without accountability under the Treaty of Versailles.... after WW1. In other words, they snuck them through production without the allies knowing about it.

I don't believe this is the reason they are not marked. Sneak is a common term used for the lugers that were made right at the change between DWM and Mauser. One reason I do not believe they were sneaking anything, is that there were lots of guns being made, with toggle marking of firms' names for many years after WW1, Simson, DWM's, Mauser, krieghoff, why suddenly start to worry about being marked, plus many if not most are for the police, exempt by the Treaty...

The reason(s) could be something as simple as;

1. They only had DWM toggles and with the change over, they simply did not want to put DWM toggles on them.
2. It could be that since they were all DWM parts, but not made by DWM, the toggle was placed onto it blank.

Ed

Herb · 03-20-2006, 05:40 PM

I looked up the E/WaA66 proof in Costanzo and found the following on page 102. Late 1933 Simson Waffen Amt Office 66 military proof. Noted on unmarked reworks. Often found with S.A. grip strap markings which represent Sturm Abteilung or L.STA. which represents Landspolzei station. Location noted: right reciever.

Jan C Still · 03-20-2006, 05:49 PM

Dan
The link below has detailed information on SNEAK Lugers (29 DWM):

POLICE 29 DWM, SN 3541t, RIG Jan C Still http://luger.gunboards.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=7570

Jan

Herb
You said: "Often found with S.A. grip strap markings which represent Sturm Abteilung or L.STA. which represents Landspolzei station."
Do you think that Costanzo is correct?
Jan

George Anderson · 03-20-2006, 06:10 PM

Jan

Herb
You said: "Often found with S.A. grip strap markings which represent Sturm Abteilung or L.STA. which represents Landspolzei station."
Do you think that Costanzo is correct?
Jan [/B][/QUOTE]

Another example of a writer "carrying water" for someone. Total nonsense.

Herb · 03-20-2006, 06:13 PM

Nope, never said I did, just posted what is in the book. The mark represents the Prussian Aurich police district.

policeluger · 03-20-2006, 06:19 PM

John S. ...he never asked about Treaty of Versallies...acountablity or the such....he want to know if they were collectable.....please advise me if I am wrong here.

Rev03FFL · 03-20-2006, 06:56 PM

Thanks much for the information and link. Interesting topic.

I had looked through Kenyon's book, and he says these were refurbished Lugers in violation of the Treaty of Versailles. But in "The Luger Handbook" it said on page X only that they were assembled from parts smuggled by workers outside the factory. I need to dig through Datig's and Walter's books to see what they have to say too.

Also it sounds reasonable that a variety of markings - or lack therof - would have occurred during the changeover from DWM to Mauser around 1930/31.

I imagine all of the above has some truth. Makes for interesting debate.

I'd almost consider bidding on this piece, but I just bought something else so my funds are dry right now. Hint: Longer barrel!

- Dan

Jan C Still · 03-20-2006, 07:07 PM

Herb
You said: "Nope, never said I did, just posted what is in the book. The mark represents the Prussian Aurich police district."

Why do you post information that you know is not correct?
Jan

Navy · 03-20-2006, 09:22 PM

Guys,

I lost the bubble on this one....who is on first?

Tom A

Herb · 03-21-2006, 12:30 AM

Jan, I posted the information as it was presented not my version of what was in the book. That is what he wrote, that is what I posted. The information was to clarify the manufacturing of the weapon without any markings. Costanzo's book contains literally hundreds upon hundreds of marking descriptions, ocassionally a misinterpretation will be made, especially with the advent of newer information coming to light since 1977 when he published the book. With the fall of the Soviet Union I expect to see more information being found which will cause a lot more of the currently printed data to become incorrect. Won't that be dissapointing?

Edward Tinker · 03-21-2006, 09:19 AM

I think I'll end this posting, was waiting on Herbie to make a reply.

Ed

John Sabato · 03-21-2006, 10:53 AM

Howard, I was providing what I believed to be the answer to the question that was provided as the subject of this thread. "What is a Sneak Luger?"

You provided many interesting and expanding details, but I didn't see an answer to his subject question. Sorry that I confused anyone...

03-20-2006, 03:53 PM	#1
Rev03FFL User Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: PHX Posts: 7 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	What is a Sneak Luger? There is an interesting Luger on GunBroker, advertised as a "Sneak" Luger. I looked it up in Kenyon's book - has a whole chapter on these. This one appears to have a sear safety that has been removed. There are 2 small holes drilled over the sear and on top of the side plate. Would this be something I would expect to see on such a Luger? Also there is a unit marking "LKZ 99" on the front gripstrap. Anyone know what this means? So are these Sneak Lugers more or less collectable than others? Without many of the usual markings, are they more susceptable to fakery? The markings on this one look correct based on Kenyon's book, and it appears to be fairly represented to my untrained eyes. Though I don't like the emphasis on the "1892". Seems like someone unfamiliar with Lugers might think this is a date, not a s/n. The link is: http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...?Item=44967937 Not that interested in bidding, just wanted to learn a bit more about these Sneaks. Thanks __________________ -- Rev ______________________________________ Igitur qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum

03-20-2006, 05:08 PM	#3
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,152 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	Howard, thanks for telling everyone what they should look like, but I think the answer that Rev was looking for is that they are Lugers that were produced without accountability under the Treaty of Versailles.... after WW1. In other words, they snuck them through production without the allies knowing about it. __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

03-20-2006, 05:40 PM	#5
Herb User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Utah, in the land of the Sleeping Rainbow Posts: 1,457 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	I looked up the E/WaA66 proof in Costanzo and found the following on page 102. Late 1933 Simson Waffen Amt Office 66 military proof. Noted on unmarked reworks. Often found with S.A. grip strap markings which represent Sturm Abteilung or L.STA. which represents Landspolzei station. Location noted: right reciever. __________________ Utah, where gun control means a steady trigger pull

03-20-2006, 06:13 PM	#8
Herb User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Utah, in the land of the Sleeping Rainbow Posts: 1,457 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Nope, never said I did, just posted what is in the book. The mark represents the Prussian Aurich police district. __________________ Utah, where gun control means a steady trigger pull

03-20-2006, 06:56 PM	#10
Rev03FFL User Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: PHX Posts: 7 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Thanks much for the information and link. Interesting topic. I had looked through Kenyon's book, and he says these were refurbished Lugers in violation of the Treaty of Versailles. But in "The Luger Handbook" it said on page X only that they were assembled from parts smuggled by workers outside the factory. I need to dig through Datig's and Walter's books to see what they have to say too. Also it sounds reasonable that a variety of markings - or lack therof - would have occurred during the changeover from DWM to Mauser around 1930/31. I imagine all of the above has some truth. Makes for interesting debate. I'd almost consider bidding on this piece, but I just bought something else so my funds are dry right now. Hint: Longer barrel! - Dan __________________ -- Rev ______________________________________ Igitur qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum

03-20-2006, 04:18 PM	#2
policeluger RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Ca. Posts: 2,141 Thanks: 8 Thanked 89 Times in 54 Posts	Just got a beaut of a sneak yesterday....well at least the deal was made yesterday....and yes very collectable, this however as you noted is missing the police sear safety, the 2 holes you see are for the safety, one is where it was riveted...on the rear and the forward hole is where the safety sticks in....right?, you know there is a sharp point the blocks the sear....everthing is susceptible to fakery but this one looks nice and correct, police unit marked L=rural police KZ=Koblenz, the city where issued and "99" is weapon 99 in the dept....not Luger number 99 just weapon 99.....hope this helps

03-20-2006, 05:49 PM	#6
Jan C Still User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Box 240188, Douglas, Alaska, 99824 Posts: 463 Thanks: 0 Thanked 52 Times in 32 Posts	Dan The link below has detailed information on SNEAK Lugers (29 DWM): POLICE 29 DWM, SN 3541t, RIG Jan C Still http://luger.gunboards.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=7570 Jan Herb You said: "Often found with S.A. grip strap markings which represent Sturm Abteilung or L.STA. which represents Landspolzei station." Do you think that Costanzo is correct? Jan

03-20-2006, 06:10 PM	#7
George Anderson Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: VA Posts: 3,592 Thanks: 1,773 Thanked 2,527 Times in 786 Posts	Jan Herb You said: "Often found with S.A. grip strap markings which represent Sturm Abteilung or L.STA. which represents Landspolzei station." Do you think that Costanzo is correct? Jan [/B][/QUOTE] Another example of a writer "carrying water" for someone. Total nonsense.

03-20-2006, 06:19 PM	#9
policeluger RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Ca. Posts: 2,141 Thanks: 8 Thanked 89 Times in 54 Posts	John S. ...he never asked about Treaty of Versallies...acountablity or the such....he want to know if they were collectable.....please advise me if I am wrong here.

03-20-2006, 07:07 PM	#11
Jan C Still User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Box 240188, Douglas, Alaska, 99824 Posts: 463 Thanks: 0 Thanked 52 Times in 32 Posts	Herb You said: "Nope, never said I did, just posted what is in the book. The mark represents the Prussian Aurich police district." Why do you post information that you know is not correct? Jan

03-20-2006, 09:22 PM	#12
Navy RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Dc 'burbs in Virginia Posts: 2,482 Thanks: 0 Thanked 16 Times in 10 Posts	Guys, I lost the bubble on this one....who is on first? Tom A

03-21-2006, 12:30 AM	#13
Herb User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Utah, in the land of the Sleeping Rainbow Posts: 1,457 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Jan, I posted the information as it was presented not my version of what was in the book. That is what he wrote, that is what I posted. The information was to clarify the manufacturing of the weapon without any markings. Costanzo's book contains literally hundreds upon hundreds of marking descriptions, ocassionally a misinterpretation will be made, especially with the advent of newer information coming to light since 1977 when he published the book. With the fall of the Soviet Union I expect to see more information being found which will cause a lot more of the currently printed data to become incorrect. Won't that be dissapointing? __________________ Utah, where gun control means a steady trigger pull

03-21-2006, 09:19 AM	#14
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,916 Thanks: 1,992 Thanked 4,507 Times in 2,081 Posts	I think I'll end this posting, was waiting on Herbie to make a reply. Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

03-21-2006, 10:53 AM	#15
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,152 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	Howard, I was providing what I believed to be the answer to the question that was provided as the subject of this thread. "What is a Sneak Luger?" You provided many interesting and expanding details, but I didn't see an answer to his subject question. Sorry that I confused anyone... __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*