What is a Sneak Luger?
 

There is an interesting Luger on GunBroker, advertised as a "Sneak" Luger.

I looked it up in Kenyon's book - has a whole chapter on these.

This one appears to have a sear safety that has been removed. There are 2 small holes drilled over the sear and on top of the side plate. Would this be something I would expect to see on such a Luger?

Also there is a unit marking "LKZ 99" on the front gripstrap. Anyone know what this means?

So are these Sneak Lugers more or less collectable than others? Without many of the usual markings, are they more susceptable to fakery?

The markings on this one look correct based on Kenyon's book, and it appears to be fairly represented to my untrained eyes. Though I don't like the emphasis on the "1892". Seems like someone unfamiliar with Lugers might think this is a date, not a s/n.

The link is:

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...?Item=44967937

Not that interested in bidding, just wanted to learn a bit more about these Sneaks.

Thanks

Just got a beaut of a sneak yesterday....well at least the deal was made yesterday....and yes very collectable, this however as you noted is missing the police sear safety, the 2 holes you see are for the safety, one is where it was riveted...on the rear and the forward hole is where the safety sticks in....right?, you know there is a sharp point the blocks the sear....everthing is susceptible to fakery but this one looks nice and correct, police unit marked L=rural police KZ=Koblenz, the city where issued and "99" is weapon 99 in the dept....not Luger number 99 just weapon 99.....hope this helps

Howard, thanks for telling everyone what they should look like, but I think the answer that Rev was looking for is that they are Lugers that were produced without accountability under the Treaty of Versailles.... after WW1. In other words, they snuck them through production without the allies knowing about it.

I don't believe this is the reason they are not marked. Sneak is a common term used for the lugers that were made right at the change between DWM and Mauser. One reason I do not believe they were sneaking anything, is that there were lots of guns being made, with toggle marking of firms' names for many years after WW1, Simson, DWM's, Mauser, krieghoff, why suddenly start to worry about being marked, plus many if not most are for the police, exempt by the Treaty...

The reason(s) could be something as simple as;

1. They only had DWM toggles and with the change over, they simply did not want to put DWM toggles on them.
2. It could be that since they were all DWM parts, but not made by DWM, the toggle was placed onto it blank.


Ed

I looked up the E/WaA66 proof in Costanzo and found the following on page 102. Late 1933 Simson Waffen Amt Office 66 military proof. Noted on unmarked reworks. Often found with S.A. grip strap markings which represent Sturm Abteilung or L.STA. which represents Landspolzei station. Location noted: right reciever.

Dan
The link below has detailed information on SNEAK Lugers (29 DWM):

POLICE 29 DWM, SN 3541t, RIG Jan C Still http://luger.gunboards.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=7570

Jan

Herb
You said: "Often found with S.A. grip strap markings which represent Sturm Abteilung or L.STA. which represents Landspolzei station."
Do you think that Costanzo is correct?
Jan

Jan

Herb
You said: "Often found with S.A. grip strap markings which represent Sturm Abteilung or L.STA. which represents Landspolzei station."
Do you think that Costanzo is correct?
Jan [/B][/QUOTE]

Another example of a writer "carrying water" for someone. Total nonsense.

Nope, never said I did, just posted what is in the book. The mark represents the Prussian Aurich police district.

John S. ...he never asked about Treaty of Versallies...acountablity or the such....he want to know if they were collectable.....please advise me if I am wrong here.

Thanks much for the information and link. Interesting topic.

I had looked through Kenyon's book, and he says these were refurbished Lugers in violation of the Treaty of Versailles. But in "The Luger Handbook" it said on page X only that they were assembled from parts smuggled by workers outside the factory. I need to dig through Datig's and Walter's books to see what they have to say too.

Also it sounds reasonable that a variety of markings - or lack therof - would have occurred during the changeover from DWM to Mauser around 1930/31.

I imagine all of the above has some truth. Makes for interesting debate.

I'd almost consider bidding on this piece, but I just bought something else so my funds are dry right now. Hint: Longer barrel! ;)

- Dan

Herb
You said: "Nope, never said I did, just posted what is in the book. The mark represents the Prussian Aurich police district."

Why do you post information that you know is not correct?
Jan

Guys,

I lost the bubble on this one....who is on first?

Tom A

Jan, I posted the information as it was presented not my version of what was in the book. That is what he wrote, that is what I posted. The information was to clarify the manufacturing of the weapon without any markings. Costanzo's book contains literally hundreds upon hundreds of marking descriptions, ocassionally a misinterpretation will be made, especially with the advent of newer information coming to light since 1977 when he published the book. With the fall of the Soviet Union I expect to see more information being found which will cause a lot more of the currently printed data to become incorrect. Won't that be dissapointing?

I think I'll end this posting, was waiting on Herbie to make a reply.

;)


Ed

Howard, I was providing what I believed to be the answer to the question that was provided as the subject of this thread. "What is a Sneak Luger?"

You provided many interesting and expanding details, but I didn't see an answer to his subject question. Sorry that I confused anyone... :(