Questions on 1900 America Eagle (test?)

bruce98k · 01-05-2009, 02:56 PM

Any help would be appreciated here as I am a 98k collector and not a Luger expert.

American Eagle - 1900, SN 7633. No Germany stamp on front face. All matched with un-numbered grips and firing pin.
About 90% overall with some inner grip wear.

Question 1: Is this considered a test eagle?
Question 2: Lack of numbers on grips and pin correct?
Question 3: Rough value

Thanks.

Tim · 01-05-2009, 06:42 PM

Bruce,
You will get a number of replies here, let me be the first. Welcome to the forum. The generally accepted serial range for test eagles is 6100 to 7100, but several on this board would give a broader range of 5800 to 7800 and consider it a potential test piece if it lacks the "Germany" stamp. The only pistols universally accepted as test pieces are those that are known to be from the Bannerman purchase from the US government in 1906. These include serials
6176-6196
6282
6361-7108
7147
One of the gentlemen who will chime in is Dwight Gruber. He has compiled an extensive listing of these pistols... See:
http://forum.lugerforum.com/showthre...ght=Test+Eagle
The placement of serials on the pistol would help in identification, and photos would be superb. As to value, depends on what you have and I will leave it to those who follow to speculate, but you will get the most accurate assessment by posting photos first. Again, welcome.

Dwight Gruber · 01-05-2009, 08:31 PM

Bruce,

Welcome to the Luger Forum, indeed!

Your 1900AE is in the database. Tim is quite right about the Bannerman guns being the only verifiable U.S. Test Eagles. I am very conservative in my determination of potential Test Eagles, and opine differently from many other collectors. It is documented that DWM delivered 1,000 model 1900 American Eagles to the U.S. Army. There is no documentary basis to assume a 6100-7100 range, and the Usual Authors tend to cite slightly different ranges from each other. Although the lack of a GERMANY stamp is usually cited as one of the Test Eagle characteristics, the pistols in the range from sn 5978 to sn 7976 are found without the GERMANY stamp. You will find a detailed assessment of the situation at http://forum.lugerforum.com/showthread.php?t=17706.

It would be great to see pictures of your gun, and to know where the serial number is stamped on the takedown lever--the right end, the left face, or the bottom edge?

--Dwight (chiming in)

bruce98k · 01-06-2009, 07:51 AM

I will get pics uploaded on Wed after arrival in hand.
I really appreciate the feedback here - first class group.

Lugerdoc · 01-06-2009, 08:56 AM

I don't believe that we can rule out, that some M1900AEs may have been sold to other than the US market. Since only the US required the "Germany" marking, this may not have been applies to these. So it's a big assumption to believe that any M1900AE without the Germany is a US test luger. TH

Edward Tinker · 01-06-2009, 09:33 AM

Tom, I agree with you, but I have always felt that the American Eagle was placed on the gun for a reason; for the American market....

Tim · 01-06-2009, 05:41 PM

I didn't say the presence of an eagle and lack of a "Germany" stamp made it a test eagle, only potential. With what appears to be no broad agreement among even the highly learned group here as to what constitute a test eagle if a pistol falls outside the Bannerman range, I think potential is a reasonable assertion. I have #6312 and when I purchased it a number of years ago, I felt I was buying a "Test Eagle". It has all the other characteristics of a test piece, but falls outside the Bannerman range. Dwight (and others) have done a magnificent job of cataloging these pistols. Some would say my #6312 is a test piece, some not. I think the same generally holds true for pistols outside of historically reported serial number ranges. If it has all the characteristics of a test piece, it could be. I think the best we can say about the 220 or 230 pistols NOT in the Bannerman serial range is a qualified maybe.
Tim

bruce98k · 01-06-2009, 06:39 PM

Added initial pics to the post.

MFC · 01-06-2009, 11:58 PM

Bruce,
Test Eagle or not... she sure is pretty.

Mike B., a member of this forum, has a 1906 American Eagle that does not have the GERMANY stamp... obviously sold in Europe. The lack of the GERMANY stamp cannot determine a test Eagle.

Ron Wood · 01-07-2009, 12:33 AM

Does Mike B's AE have proof marks? It takes a combination of no GERMANY and no proofs for a Test Eagle.

Mike B · 01-07-2009, 09:04 AM

Ron,
The AE Mike C. is referring to is an '06. It is proofed with lazy N but no "GERMANY". We had a discuusion about the Luger a few years back on this forum. Please search this thread "9mm American Eagle NO GERMANY"

Mike

Ron Wood · 01-07-2009, 12:45 PM

Thanks Mike. I was pretty sure it was proofed but I couldn't remember if it was Crown/N or BUG.

Mike B · 01-07-2009, 04:41 PM

Ron,
Any new thought as to why no "GERMANY"?

Mike

Ron Wood · 01-07-2009, 05:28 PM

Only two thoughts come to mind...a worker bee forgot to stamp it and it came to the US in a lot with other AE Lugers and was overlooked...or it was sold as a novelty item in Europe (surely someone across the puddle with sufficient disposable income wanted an AE just to be the only kid on the block that had one) and therefore it didn't require the export stamp.

alvin · 01-07-2009, 07:23 PM

Some Schnellfeuers, 1930s having Hanzi "Germany Made" and some Astra 900s having Hanzi "Spain Made" on the guns. Those characters were applied in factories as well. The planned target market was clear, but a fraction of them were actually not sold to China, they were re-route to other buyers. Could same be true for some 1900 AE? .... the Eagle is there because the planned target market was US, but it were sold somewhere else, so no "GERMANY" added. One possibility?

alvin · 01-07-2009, 10:10 PM

Since no one answers Q2 "Lack of numbers on grips and pin correct?" so far, I will give it a try. It's also a learning oppertunity for me. Experts please correct me if I am wrong:

The two grip panels are supposed to be numbered "33". The firing pin and magazine bottom are not numbered.

====

bruce -- If possible, could you show the inside of the grip panels?

To avoid damage the edge of the grip screws, you can use a penny with edge sanded down to appropriate thickness as a screw driver. It's softer than the screw and it's wide enough so it won't cause any damage. That always works for me.

DavidJayUden · 01-10-2009, 09:24 PM

and those numbers on the grip panels can be a real bugger to see...

alvin · 01-10-2009, 11:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DavidJayUden

and those numbers on the grip panels can be a real bugger to see...

So far, I have seen three forms: (1) unnumbered; (2) numbered; and (3) star inside a circle.

Page 412 of Central Powers Pistols says "Grips: Checkered walnut".... but it did not mention number..... I assume that implied they were not numbered on TE.

Anyway, I have a numbered example here. s/n 10142, GERMANY marked in front of the frame. Looks perfect.

Dwight Gruber · 01-11-2009, 04:17 AM

The grips of all "old model" 1900 Parabellums are, properly, numbered.

--Dwight

Ron Wood · 02-06-2009, 07:14 PM

Bruce,
I have been tied up with other things and have been away from this thread for a while. The other members have given you great information and there is little I could add. Your Luger is one of the Bannerman purchase guns and therefore is unquestionably a test trials piece. It is not unusual for a Test Luger to have mismatched parts. Some were cannibalized, either by the Army to keep the guns in service or by Bannerman to make them functional for resale. Your Luger is in very nice condition and from what I can tell from the photos probably has not been refinished.

Either my memory is faulty or some of the foregoing thread has been deleted or edited. I seem to remember that you were also going to be recieving a holster at a later date. It will be interesting to see what it turns out to be. If an original Test holste it is quite valuable as surviving examples are rare. If I am remembering correctly and if the holster looks like the one below, pictures of it will be greatly appreciated.

01-05-2009, 02:56 PM	#1
bruce98k New User Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 3 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Questions on 1900 America Eagle (test?) Any help would be appreciated here as I am a 98k collector and not a Luger expert. American Eagle - 1900, SN 7633. No Germany stamp on front face. All matched with un-numbered grips and firing pin. About 90% overall with some inner grip wear. Question 1: Is this considered a test eagle? Question 2: Lack of numbers on grips and pin correct? Question 3: Rough value Thanks. Attached Thumbnails Last edited by bruce98k; 01-06-2009 at 06:38 PM.

01-05-2009, 06:42 PM	#2
Tim Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Great North Woods of Wisconsin Posts: 100 Thanks: 7 Thanked 4 Times in 2 Posts	Bruce, You will get a number of replies here, let me be the first. Welcome to the forum. The generally accepted serial range for test eagles is 6100 to 7100, but several on this board would give a broader range of 5800 to 7800 and consider it a potential test piece if it lacks the "Germany" stamp. The only pistols universally accepted as test pieces are those that are known to be from the Bannerman purchase from the US government in 1906. These include serials 6176-6196 6282 6361-7108 7147 One of the gentlemen who will chime in is Dwight Gruber. He has compiled an extensive listing of these pistols... See: http://forum.lugerforum.com/showthre...ght=Test+Eagle The placement of serials on the pistol would help in identification, and photos would be superb. As to value, depends on what you have and I will leave it to those who follow to speculate, but you will get the most accurate assessment by posting photos first. Again, welcome. __________________ The intent of the second amendment was not to allow the private ownership of firearms. If it had been it would have said something like "The right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed"... Last edited by Tim; 01-05-2009 at 06:52 PM. Reason: content

01-06-2009, 07:51 AM	#4
bruce98k New User Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 3 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	1900 Luger I will get pics uploaded on Wed after arrival in hand. I really appreciate the feedback here - first class group.

01-06-2009, 08:56 AM	#5
Lugerdoc Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: POB 398 St.Charles,MO. 63302 Posts: 5,089 Thanks: 6 Thanked 736 Times in 483 Posts	I don't believe that we can rule out, that some M1900AEs may have been sold to other than the US market. Since only the US required the "Germany" marking, this may not have been applies to these. So it's a big assumption to believe that any M1900AE without the Germany is a US test luger. TH __________________ Tom Heller POB 398 ST.Charles, MO. 63302 Tel 636-447-3006 lugerdoc@charter.net

01-06-2009, 05:41 PM	#7
Tim Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Great North Woods of Wisconsin Posts: 100 Thanks: 7 Thanked 4 Times in 2 Posts	I didn't say the presence of an eagle and lack of a "Germany" stamp made it a test eagle, only potential. With what appears to be no broad agreement among even the highly learned group here as to what constitute a test eagle if a pistol falls outside the Bannerman range, I think potential is a reasonable assertion. I have #6312 and when I purchased it a number of years ago, I felt I was buying a "Test Eagle". It has all the other characteristics of a test piece, but falls outside the Bannerman range. Dwight (and others) have done a magnificent job of cataloging these pistols. Some would say my #6312 is a test piece, some not. I think the same generally holds true for pistols outside of historically reported serial number ranges. If it has all the characteristics of a test piece, it could be. I think the best we can say about the 220 or 230 pistols NOT in the Bannerman serial range is a qualified maybe. Tim __________________ The intent of the second amendment was not to allow the private ownership of firearms. If it had been it would have said something like "The right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed"...

01-05-2009, 08:31 PM	#3
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,890 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,282 Times in 424 Posts	Bruce, Welcome to the Luger Forum, indeed! Your 1900AE is in the database. Tim is quite right about the Bannerman guns being the only verifiable U.S. Test Eagles. I am very conservative in my determination of potential Test Eagles, and opine differently from many other collectors. It is documented that DWM delivered 1,000 model 1900 American Eagles to the U.S. Army. There is no documentary basis to assume a 6100-7100 range, and the Usual Authors tend to cite slightly different ranges from each other. Although the lack of a GERMANY stamp is usually cited as one of the Test Eagle characteristics, the pistols in the range from sn 5978 to sn 7976 are found without the GERMANY stamp. You will find a detailed assessment of the situation at http://forum.lugerforum.com/showthread.php?t=17706. It would be great to see pictures of your gun, and to know where the serial number is stamped on the takedown lever--the right end, the left face, or the bottom edge? --Dwight (chiming in)

01-06-2009, 09:33 AM	#6
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,915 Thanks: 1,989 Thanked 4,506 Times in 2,080 Posts	Tom, I agree with you, but I have always felt that the American Eagle was placed on the gun for a reason; for the American market.... __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

01-06-2009, 06:39 PM	#8
bruce98k New User Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 3 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	pics added Added initial pics to the post.

01-06-2009, 11:58 PM	#9
MFC User Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Louisiana Posts: 1,237 Thanks: 183 Thanked 281 Times in 162 Posts	Bruce, Test Eagle or not... she sure is pretty. Mike B., a member of this forum, has a 1906 American Eagle that does not have the GERMANY stamp... obviously sold in Europe. The lack of the GERMANY stamp cannot determine a test Eagle. __________________ Mike C.

01-07-2009, 12:33 AM	#10
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 6,988 Thanks: 1,067 Thanked 5,099 Times in 1,676 Posts	Does Mike B's AE have proof marks? It takes a combination of no GERMANY and no proofs for a Test Eagle. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

01-07-2009, 09:04 AM	#11
Mike B Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: South Louisiana Posts: 979 Thanks: 1 Thanked 271 Times in 99 Posts	Ron, The AE Mike C. is referring to is an '06. It is proofed with lazy N but no "GERMANY". We had a discuusion about the Luger a few years back on this forum. Please search this thread "9mm American Eagle NO GERMANY" Mike

01-07-2009, 12:45 PM	#12
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 6,988 Thanks: 1,067 Thanked 5,099 Times in 1,676 Posts	Thanks Mike. I was pretty sure it was proofed but I couldn't remember if it was Crown/N or BUG. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

01-07-2009, 04:41 PM	#13
Mike B Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: South Louisiana Posts: 979 Thanks: 1 Thanked 271 Times in 99 Posts	Ron, Any new thought as to why no "GERMANY"? Mike

01-07-2009, 05:28 PM	#14
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 6,988 Thanks: 1,067 Thanked 5,099 Times in 1,676 Posts	Only two thoughts come to mind...a worker bee forgot to stamp it and it came to the US in a lot with other AE Lugers and was overlooked...or it was sold as a novelty item in Europe (surely someone across the puddle with sufficient disposable income wanted an AE just to be the only kid on the block that had one) and therefore it didn't require the export stamp. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

01-07-2009, 07:23 PM	#15
alvin User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: US Posts: 3,843 Thanks: 132 Thanked 729 Times in 438 Posts	Some Schnellfeuers, 1930s having Hanzi "Germany Made" and some Astra 900s having Hanzi "Spain Made" on the guns. Those characters were applied in factories as well. The planned target market was clear, but a fraction of them were actually not sold to China, they were re-route to other buyers. Could same be true for some 1900 AE? .... the Eagle is there because the planned target market was US, but it were sold somewhere else, so no "GERMANY" added. One possibility?

01-07-2009, 10:10 PM	#16
alvin User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: US Posts: 3,843 Thanks: 132 Thanked 729 Times in 438 Posts	Since no one answers Q2 "Lack of numbers on grips and pin correct?" so far, I will give it a try. It's also a learning oppertunity for me. Experts please correct me if I am wrong: The two grip panels are supposed to be numbered "33". The firing pin and magazine bottom are not numbered. ==== bruce -- If possible, could you show the inside of the grip panels? To avoid damage the edge of the grip screws, you can use a penny with edge sanded down to appropriate thickness as a screw driver. It's softer than the screw and it's wide enough so it won't cause any damage. That always works for me. Last edited by alvin; 01-07-2009 at 10:53 PM.

01-10-2009, 09:24 PM	#17
DavidJayUden Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 4,047 Thanks: 578 Thanked 1,414 Times in 887 Posts	and those numbers on the grip panels can be a real bugger to see...

01-11-2009, 04:17 AM	#19
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,890 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,282 Times in 424 Posts	The grips of all "old model" 1900 Parabellums are, properly, numbered. --Dwight

02-06-2009, 07:14 PM	#20
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 6,988 Thanks: 1,067 Thanked 5,099 Times in 1,676 Posts	Bruce, I have been tied up with other things and have been away from this thread for a while. The other members have given you great information and there is little I could add. Your Luger is one of the Bannerman purchase guns and therefore is unquestionably a test trials piece. It is not unusual for a Test Luger to have mismatched parts. Some were cannibalized, either by the Army to keep the guns in service or by Bannerman to make them functional for resale. Your Luger is in very nice condition and from what I can tell from the photos probably has not been refinished. Either my memory is faulty or some of the foregoing thread has been deleted or edited. I seem to remember that you were also going to be recieving a holster at a later date. It will be interesting to see what it turns out to be. If an original Test holste it is quite valuable as surviving examples are rare. If I am remembering correctly and if the holster looks like the one below, pictures of it will be greatly appreciated. Attached Thumbnails __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction