1939 Toggle Slide Tolerance

johnb55 · 07-29-2016, 08:06 AM

I have a question for the board about what is an acceptable tolerance for the luger toggle action. I have noticed that when putting the toggle back in the slid it is tight. I have to open the receiver with my fingers to get toggle in. Wondering if anyone has come across this same condition. It's a learning process, planning to stop by local gunsmith for a opinion if it is a problem.

DavidJayUden · 07-29-2016, 08:40 AM

Does the gun function correctly? If it moves correctly once in, then it's OK.
Also, be extremely carefully about applying force to open the 2 sides.
Matching frame and toggle numbers?
dju

DonVoigt · 07-29-2016, 08:43 AM

Yes, I have several that have this "problem".
It does not seem to affect any function, only re-assembly.

Taking your luger to a gunsmith is likely a waste of time; and maybe a danger to the luger, JMHO.

David is correct, if it works it is ok.

alanint · 07-29-2016, 08:48 AM

The upper receiver "tuning fork" has a certain amount of "spring" to it. Everything aligns, once the upper receiver is guided onto the lower receiver's rails. There is nothing wrong here and I would also not recommend any bending of the upper receiver tines.

Eugen · 07-29-2016, 09:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by johnb55

I have a question for the board about what is an acceptable tolerance for the luger toggle action. I have noticed that when putting the toggle back in the slid it is tight. I have to open the receiver with my fingers to get toggle in. Wondering if anyone has come across this same condition. It's a learning process, planning to stop by local gunsmith for a opinion if it is a problem.

I am curious to know if this is a recent condition with this Luger or is this a new Luger that that has always been this way. As asked above, are all the toggle parts original and matching or was a new part introduced? Have you fired it with this condition? What are the results? The more patient history know, the better the physician diagnosis.

Lastly, as I have learned from my short time on this forum, be very careful about trusting a local gun smith with your Luger. I am not speaking from experience, but from the flood of comments on multiple threads I have read from folks that know a whole lot more than me.

johnb55 · 07-29-2016, 09:43 AM

Hi David, yes matching toggle and frame. Thank you to everyone for the info. I will pass on the gunsmith. It does appear to function correctly. I was thinking that if I ever decided to shoot pistol it might cause the gun to jam. Attaching a couple pics.

ithacaartist · 07-29-2016, 12:40 PM

I will agree to the extent that Lugers function adequately like this, but have a different view. True to the precision and extent of detail inherent in a Luger's manufacture, I think any pistol that left the factory would tend to have parts that are straight and true.

Exactly how the tines are bent can make a difference, I'd think. If the tines themselves are straight, but pinched in a bit, spreading them by hand to slip the block between them would only result in a slight resistance to the rotation of the rear toggle.

If a tine(s) is bowed, then squeezing them together to slide the upper into the frame, or spreading them to accept the breech block will bring the deformity into play during function.

If the tines bow in--between the breech and the toggle axle--the breech block will be slowed by the narrow area when assembled.

If they bow out, the barrel extension will be more snug than spec. when all is in place.

Whether they affect function--and how much--would be dictated by the extent of the deformity. It is obviously true that function is not affected noticeably in some cases, and I guess that can be acceptable. But IMHO, any bending of any part should be considered damage. I can attest that it is important with Erma toggle pistols--the .22's in particular, because they involve management of much lower energies when firing.

I'm keen to read what G.T. or Lugerdoc might say about the situation, in light of their experience in straightening out Lugers.

mrerick · 07-29-2016, 01:23 PM

Your pictures show a toggle train in a receiver that appears straight, square and true.

How much deformation / interference to re-inserting the toggle train is present in the forks? Are we talking about a millimeter or two? More?

Do you feel uneven resistance when moving the toggle train inside the receiver (while it's dismounted from the frame and recoil mechanism)?

These were precision manufactured to very close tolerances. The operation of the toggle train within the receiver forks should be smooth and without wiggle or slop.

The critical measurements relate to headspace and proper insertion of the cartridge into the chamber. This would involve forward / rearward movement, and there should be none detectable.

johnb55 · 07-29-2016, 04:01 PM

Hi Mrerick, I would say the receiver forks are angled in 1 maybe 2 millimeters. I guess the only way to see how much it affects the gun is to take it to the range. Wondering what you and the other board members feel about it affecting the value of the gun. I would have maybe passed on it if I would have known or offered a reduced price. Am I being too picky for an entry level luger? I do feel a little better knowing that other people have similar guns.

DavidJayUden · 07-29-2016, 04:19 PM

Reinserting a toggle assy. into a stripped upper MAY require very gentle manipulation of the upper to get it started, but usually it is more a matter of finding the correct angle for insertion. I suppose a good caliper could tell a story on whether the amount of "spread" changes between the chamber area and the back end.
But quite honestly it all sounds like a non-problem. Or maybe an excuse to buy another Luger...
dju

Ron Wood · 07-29-2016, 05:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DavidJayUden

...But quite honestly it all sounds like a non-problem. Or maybe an excuse to buy another Luger...
dju

Bingo!

kurusu · 07-29-2016, 05:22 PM

That "problem" generally means an extremely accurate pistol.

DonVoigt · 07-29-2016, 11:13 PM

"Am I being too picky for an entry level luger?"

Yes, JMHO.

You need to test fire it after cleaning and a good lube.

Come back then and tell us about the results.

Lugerdoc · 07-30-2016, 08:25 AM

I agree with some of the above comments: if it shoots OK, don't worry about it. To open up the tines, one risk the metal cracking, if not done correctly, or perhaps increased friction between the receiver and the frame, which could also cause function problems. TH

johnb55 · 07-30-2016, 08:37 AM

Hi Don, my range is currently closed due to a renovation for another week. I will keep everybody updated on how the gun shoots as soon as it opens. From reading the posts looks like it should all be fine.

johnb55 · 07-31-2016, 01:44 PM

Merick, I checked the slide with a digital caliber. The results are as follows:

Slide opening closest to chamber 13.03 mm
1/4 way down 12.96
1/2 way down 12.88
3/4 way down 12.79
end of slide 12.73

Total variance .30 mm

Looks like no big deal, hoping to fire luger this week, that will give the final outcome.

johnb55 · 07-31-2016, 02:13 PM

Merick, I checked the slide with a digital caliber. The results are as follows:

Slide opening closest to chamber 13.03 mm
1/4 way down 12.96
1/2 way down 12.88
3/4 way down 12.79
end of slide 12.73

Total variance .30 mm

Looks like no big deal, hoping to fire luger this week, that will give the final outcome.

johnb55 · 08-03-2016, 06:57 AM

I wanted to add the results of range firing pistol here. By mistake I posted results in another one of my posts. The gun cycled fine, no jamming as all on board expected. Next purchase I will watch out for this condition though.

07-29-2016, 08:06 AM	#1
johnb55 User Join Date: Jun 2016 Location: New Jersey Posts: 22 Thanks: 2 Thanked 4 Times in 3 Posts	1939 Toggle Slide Tolerance I have a question for the board about what is an acceptable tolerance for the luger toggle action. I have noticed that when putting the toggle back in the slid it is tight. I have to open the receiver with my fingers to get toggle in. Wondering if anyone has come across this same condition. It's a learning process, planning to stop by local gunsmith for a opinion if it is a problem.

07-29-2016, 08:43 AM	#3
DonVoigt User Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: near Charlotte NC Posts: 4,678 Thanks: 1,441 Thanked 4,348 Times in 2,038 Posts	Yes, I have several that have this "problem". It does not seem to affect any function, only re-assembly. Taking your luger to a gunsmith is likely a waste of time; and maybe a danger to the luger, JMHO. David is correct, if it works it is ok. __________________ 03man(Don Voigt); Luger student and collector. Looking for DWM side plate: 69 ; Dreyse 1907 pistol K.S. Gendarmerie

07-29-2016, 09:43 AM	#6
johnb55 User Join Date: Jun 2016 Location: New Jersey Posts: 22 Thanks: 2 Thanked 4 Times in 3 Posts	Hi David, yes matching toggle and frame. Thank you to everyone for the info. I will pass on the gunsmith. It does appear to function correctly. I was thinking that if I ever decided to shoot pistol it might cause the gun to jam. Attaching a couple pics. Attached Thumbnails

07-29-2016, 12:40 PM	#7
ithacaartist Twice a Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Atop the highest hill in Schuyler County NY Posts: 3,290 Thanks: 7,055 Thanked 2,482 Times in 1,323 Posts	I will agree to the extent that Lugers function adequately like this, but have a different view. True to the precision and extent of detail inherent in a Luger's manufacture, I think any pistol that left the factory would tend to have parts that are straight and true. Exactly how the tines are bent can make a difference, I'd think. If the tines themselves are straight, but pinched in a bit, spreading them by hand to slip the block between them would only result in a slight resistance to the rotation of the rear toggle. If a tine(s) is bowed, then squeezing them together to slide the upper into the frame, or spreading them to accept the breech block will bring the deformity into play during function. If the tines bow in--between the breech and the toggle axle--the breech block will be slowed by the narrow area when assembled. If they bow out, the barrel extension will be more snug than spec. when all is in place. Whether they affect function--and how much--would be dictated by the extent of the deformity. It is obviously true that function is not affected noticeably in some cases, and I guess that can be acceptable. But IMHO, any bending of any part should be considered damage. I can attest that it is important with Erma toggle pistols--the .22's in particular, because they involve management of much lower energies when firing. I'm keen to read what G.T. or Lugerdoc might say about the situation, in light of their experience in straightening out Lugers. __________________ "... Liberty is the seed and soil, the air and light, the dew and rain of progress, love and joy."-- Robert Greene Ingersoll 1894

07-29-2016, 01:23 PM	#8
mrerick Super Moderator - Patron LugerForum Life Patron Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Eastern North Carolina, USA Posts: 3,900 Thanks: 1,372 Thanked 3,094 Times in 1,503 Posts	Your pictures show a toggle train in a receiver that appears straight, square and true. How much deformation / interference to re-inserting the toggle train is present in the forks? Are we talking about a millimeter or two? More? Do you feel uneven resistance when moving the toggle train inside the receiver (while it's dismounted from the frame and recoil mechanism)? These were precision manufactured to very close tolerances. The operation of the toggle train within the receiver forks should be smooth and without wiggle or slop. The critical measurements relate to headspace and proper insertion of the cartridge into the chamber. This would involve forward / rearward movement, and there should be none detectable. __________________ Igitur si vis pacem, para bellum - - Therefore if you want peace, prepare for war.

07-29-2016, 08:40 AM	#2
DavidJayUden Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 4,047 Thanks: 578 Thanked 1,414 Times in 887 Posts	Does the gun function correctly? If it moves correctly once in, then it's OK. Also, be extremely carefully about applying force to open the 2 sides. Matching frame and toggle numbers? dju

07-29-2016, 08:48 AM	#4
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,916 Times in 1,192 Posts	The upper receiver "tuning fork" has a certain amount of "spring" to it. Everything aligns, once the upper receiver is guided onto the lower receiver's rails. There is nothing wrong here and I would also not recommend any bending of the upper receiver tines.

07-29-2016, 04:01 PM	#9
johnb55 User Join Date: Jun 2016 Location: New Jersey Posts: 22 Thanks: 2 Thanked 4 Times in 3 Posts	Hi Mrerick, I would say the receiver forks are angled in 1 maybe 2 millimeters. I guess the only way to see how much it affects the gun is to take it to the range. Wondering what you and the other board members feel about it affecting the value of the gun. I would have maybe passed on it if I would have known or offered a reduced price. Am I being too picky for an entry level luger? I do feel a little better knowing that other people have similar guns.

07-29-2016, 04:19 PM	#10
DavidJayUden Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 4,047 Thanks: 578 Thanked 1,414 Times in 887 Posts	Reinserting a toggle assy. into a stripped upper MAY require very gentle manipulation of the upper to get it started, but usually it is more a matter of finding the correct angle for insertion. I suppose a good caliper could tell a story on whether the amount of "spread" changes between the chamber area and the back end. But quite honestly it all sounds like a non-problem. Or maybe an excuse to buy another Luger... dju

07-29-2016, 05:22 PM	#12
kurusu User Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 1,225 Thanks: 2,679 Thanked 929 Times in 509 Posts	That "problem" generally means an extremely accurate pistol.

07-29-2016, 11:13 PM	#13
DonVoigt User Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: near Charlotte NC Posts: 4,678 Thanks: 1,441 Thanked 4,348 Times in 2,038 Posts	"Am I being too picky for an entry level luger?" Yes, JMHO. You need to test fire it after cleaning and a good lube. Come back then and tell us about the results. __________________ 03man(Don Voigt); Luger student and collector. Looking for DWM side plate: 69 ; Dreyse 1907 pistol K.S. Gendarmerie

07-30-2016, 08:25 AM	#14
Lugerdoc Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: POB 398 St.Charles,MO. 63302 Posts: 5,089 Thanks: 6 Thanked 736 Times in 483 Posts	I agree with some of the above comments: if it shoots OK, don't worry about it. To open up the tines, one risk the metal cracking, if not done correctly, or perhaps increased friction between the receiver and the frame, which could also cause function problems. TH __________________ Tom Heller POB 398 ST.Charles, MO. 63302 Tel 636-447-3006 lugerdoc@charter.net

07-30-2016, 08:37 AM	#15
johnb55 User Join Date: Jun 2016 Location: New Jersey Posts: 22 Thanks: 2 Thanked 4 Times in 3 Posts	Hi Don, my range is currently closed due to a renovation for another week. I will keep everybody updated on how the gun shoots as soon as it opens. From reading the posts looks like it should all be fine.

07-31-2016, 01:44 PM	#16
johnb55 User Join Date: Jun 2016 Location: New Jersey Posts: 22 Thanks: 2 Thanked 4 Times in 3 Posts	Merick, I checked the slide with a digital caliber. The results are as follows: Slide opening closest to chamber 13.03 mm 1/4 way down 12.96 1/2 way down 12.88 3/4 way down 12.79 end of slide 12.73 Total variance .30 mm Looks like no big deal, hoping to fire luger this week, that will give the final outcome.

07-31-2016, 02:13 PM	#17
johnb55 User Join Date: Jun 2016 Location: New Jersey Posts: 22 Thanks: 2 Thanked 4 Times in 3 Posts	Merick, I checked the slide with a digital caliber. The results are as follows: Slide opening closest to chamber 13.03 mm 1/4 way down 12.96 1/2 way down 12.88 3/4 way down 12.79 end of slide 12.73 Total variance .30 mm Looks like no big deal, hoping to fire luger this week, that will give the final outcome.

08-03-2016, 06:57 AM	#18
johnb55 User Join Date: Jun 2016 Location: New Jersey Posts: 22 Thanks: 2 Thanked 4 Times in 3 Posts	I wanted to add the results of range firing pistol here. By mistake I posted results in another one of my posts. The gun cycled fine, no jamming as all on board expected. Next purchase I will watch out for this condition though.