Is this a "Black Widow?"

wdavid431 · 09-12-2006, 08:23 PM

Pistol is black with unmarked black plastic or bakelite hand grips. Left side
of frame is marked 9239, P.08. Safety is GESICHERT. Under barrel, 9239 y or g (not sure). Top of receiver 41, byf with matching serial number markings. Pistol is all matching. Right side of frame 3 eagles--655, 655, and eagle over circle with Nazi symbol. Mag is black with eagle over 37, FXO (I think) and eagle over 37, then P08.
Is this a "Black Widow?" How is a true one identified?
Any and all ideals are greatly appreciated.
Anyone know of approximate value?

Mike B · 09-12-2006, 09:43 PM

Sound like one to me. A picture would be of great help. The value is highly dependant on the condition. Do you have the holster with it?

Mike

wdavid431 · 09-12-2006, 09:50 PM

Thanks for the fast reply. Condition is approx 98% (wow). Should the hand grips be marked? Sorry no hoster.

Mike B · 09-12-2006, 09:52 PM

No marks on the grips. 98% is quite a nice Luger. Everyting you described sounds like a true "Black Widow". Except for the question of the grips. Is the mark a circle?

Edward Tinker · 09-12-2006, 09:54 PM

David, there is information in the FAQ, also, be aware there is NO Such thing as a "black widow". There are charecteristics that are shared with these guns that fit a category that was called black widow by american dealers, there is not a true german luger variation...

Ed

John Sabato · 09-13-2006, 07:26 AM

What Ed says is true , but the marking you mention are typical of what is called a "black widow"... If the grips look EXACTLY like these, they are very likely original grips and of great value all on their own... the last few pair of these grips that sold on ebay went for $250-$325... At their age, they are very fragile and I would not use them for shooting... just display...

wdavid431 · 09-13-2006, 05:03 PM

The grips are identical to the one in the photo you posted. Wow, never thought I would ever be able to get a true "Black Widow." I know it is really a Luger, byf, 1941, which is black. But the false name used for marketing stuck and those lugers are now somewhat separate from others.
Thanks to all the members for their help and information.

wdavid431 · 09-13-2006, 05:32 PM

One last question, with SN 9239 y, when was the pistol made? Looking at the letter it is clearly a "y" however comparing it to the Fraktur chart I am really unsure.

Frank · 09-13-2006, 08:37 PM

Hi W David!! My best guess on the completion date of 9239y, 41 byf is September 1941. That is based on uniform production numbers and could be a month off either way!!

wdavid431 · 09-16-2006, 04:08 PM

I think I have my camera working right, and the file is correct size. Finally here are pictures of my 41 byf Luger.
One picture I had to lighten up to show stamps on the pistol.
Any ideal of value?

wdavid431 · 09-16-2006, 04:09 PM

Right side of byf 41 Luger showing a view that is closer to the black color of the pistol.

wdavid431 · 09-16-2006, 04:11 PM

I forgot to mention that the slight reddish color on the right side is the only place where pistol is not all black.
Comments please.

waltherguy · 09-16-2006, 06:23 PM

Looks like a real nice Luger David!

wdavid431 · 09-17-2006, 08:08 AM

Thank you for your kind comment. This pistol has found a home forever. The art and care used in producing the Luger pistols is a joy to find. To me they are a part of history and provide a way to hold that history in our hands.
Thanks again to all the members of this forum.

Edward Tinker · 09-17-2006, 11:06 AM

it is a nice one, you will likely get the urge for another, and another to "even" out the colelction

Mike B · 09-18-2006, 06:27 AM

Hi David,
You certainly will get the urge to buy another. I bought my first Luger in 1959 and the bug is worse now. Until this weekend, I did not have a "Black Widow" in my collection. I came across this one over the weekend and was able to add it to my collection. It is a 1941 also.
Mike

John Sabato · 09-18-2006, 09:36 AM

They are my favorite Luger of the Mauser military series after 1937... Nice pistols for sure... the best metallurgy available during the war, and the best craftsmanship on the military guns IMHO.

Steinar · 09-18-2006, 09:47 AM

I also have a special place in my heart for byf Lugers.. They are very nice. Congratulations with it!

Edward Tinker · 09-18-2006, 08:17 PM

Mr. W. David,

well, I have a byf coming to me, so let me eat a little crow and I'll join the "black widow" league, my

apologies

ed

Parabellus · 09-18-2006, 09:20 PM

More of a black widowmaker, if you catch my drift.

Now you guys are getting me interested in these. Let me go see what KrausewerK has under the glass tomorrow.

Russell

09-12-2006, 08:23 PM	#1
wdavid431 User Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Arkansas Posts: 135 Thanks: 0 Thanked 4 Times in 4 Posts	Is this a "Black Widow?" Pistol is black with unmarked black plastic or bakelite hand grips. Left side of frame is marked 9239, P.08. Safety is GESICHERT. Under barrel, 9239 y or g (not sure). Top of receiver 41, byf with matching serial number markings. Pistol is all matching. Right side of frame 3 eagles--655, 655, and eagle over circle with Nazi symbol. Mag is black with eagle over 37, FXO (I think) and eagle over 37, then P08. Is this a "Black Widow?" How is a true one identified? Any and all ideals are greatly appreciated. Anyone know of approximate value? __________________ W David

09-12-2006, 09:50 PM	#3
wdavid431 User Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Arkansas Posts: 135 Thanks: 0 Thanked 4 Times in 4 Posts	Thanks for the fast reply. Condition is approx 98% (wow). Should the hand grips be marked? Sorry no hoster. __________________ W David

09-12-2006, 09:54 PM	#5
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,916 Thanks: 1,995 Thanked 4,507 Times in 2,081 Posts	David, there is information in the FAQ, also, be aware there is NO Such thing as a "black widow". There are charecteristics that are shared with these guns that fit a category that was called black widow by american dealers, there is not a true german luger variation... Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

09-13-2006, 07:26 AM	#6
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,152 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	What Ed says is true , but the marking you mention are typical of what is called a "black widow"... If the grips look EXACTLY like these, they are very likely original grips and of great value all on their own... the last few pair of these grips that sold on ebay went for $250-$325... At their age, they are very fragile and I would not use them for shooting... just display... __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

09-13-2006, 05:03 PM	#7
wdavid431 User Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Arkansas Posts: 135 Thanks: 0 Thanked 4 Times in 4 Posts	Is this a Black Widow? The grips are identical to the one in the photo you posted. Wow, never thought I would ever be able to get a true "Black Widow." I know it is really a Luger, byf, 1941, which is black. But the false name used for marketing stuck and those lugers are now somewhat separate from others. Thanks to all the members for their help and information. __________________ W David

09-12-2006, 09:43 PM	#2
Mike B Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: South Louisiana Posts: 979 Thanks: 1 Thanked 271 Times in 99 Posts	Sound like one to me. A picture would be of great help. The value is highly dependant on the condition. Do you have the holster with it? Mike

09-12-2006, 09:52 PM	#4
Mike B Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: South Louisiana Posts: 979 Thanks: 1 Thanked 271 Times in 99 Posts	No marks on the grips. 98% is quite a nice Luger. Everyting you described sounds like a true "Black Widow". Except for the question of the grips. Is the mark a circle?

09-13-2006, 05:32 PM	#8
wdavid431 User Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Arkansas Posts: 135 Thanks: 0 Thanked 4 Times in 4 Posts	Is this a Black Widow One last question, with SN 9239 y, when was the pistol made? Looking at the letter it is clearly a "y" however comparing it to the Fraktur chart I am really unsure. __________________ W David

09-13-2006, 08:37 PM	#9
Frank RIP Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Hot & Dry PHX, AZ Posts: 2,078 Thanks: 24 Thanked 163 Times in 87 Posts	Hi W David!! My best guess on the completion date of 9239y, 41 byf is September 1941. That is based on uniform production numbers and could be a month off either way!!

09-16-2006, 04:08 PM	#10
wdavid431 User Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Arkansas Posts: 135 Thanks: 0 Thanked 4 Times in 4 Posts	I think I have my camera working right, and the file is correct size. Finally here are pictures of my 41 byf Luger. One picture I had to lighten up to show stamps on the pistol. Any ideal of value? Attached Images __________________ W David

09-16-2006, 04:09 PM	#11
wdavid431 User Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Arkansas Posts: 135 Thanks: 0 Thanked 4 Times in 4 Posts	Right side of byf 41 Luger showing a view that is closer to the black color of the pistol. Attached Images __________________ W David

09-16-2006, 04:11 PM	#12
wdavid431 User Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Arkansas Posts: 135 Thanks: 0 Thanked 4 Times in 4 Posts	I forgot to mention that the slight reddish color on the right side is the only place where pistol is not all black. Comments please. __________________ W David

09-16-2006, 06:23 PM	#13
waltherguy User Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: FL Posts: 201 Thanks: 5 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Looks like a real nice Luger David! __________________ "In a man to man fight the winner is the one who puts an extra round in his magazine" -Field Marshal Erwin Rommel

09-17-2006, 08:08 AM	#14
wdavid431 User Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Arkansas Posts: 135 Thanks: 0 Thanked 4 Times in 4 Posts	Thank you for your kind comment. This pistol has found a home forever. The art and care used in producing the Luger pistols is a joy to find. To me they are a part of history and provide a way to hold that history in our hands. Thanks again to all the members of this forum. __________________ W David

09-17-2006, 11:06 AM	#15
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,916 Thanks: 1,995 Thanked 4,507 Times in 2,081 Posts	it is a nice one, you will likely get the urge for another, and another to "even" out the colelction __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

09-18-2006, 06:27 AM	#16
Mike B Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: South Louisiana Posts: 979 Thanks: 1 Thanked 271 Times in 99 Posts	Hi David, You certainly will get the urge to buy another. I bought my first Luger in 1959 and the bug is worse now. Until this weekend, I did not have a "Black Widow" in my collection. I came across this one over the weekend and was able to add it to my collection. It is a 1941 also. Mike

09-18-2006, 09:36 AM	#17
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,152 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	They are my favorite Luger of the Mauser military series after 1937... Nice pistols for sure... the best metallurgy available during the war, and the best craftsmanship on the military guns IMHO. __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

09-18-2006, 09:47 AM	#18
Steinar User Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 1,538 Thanks: 18 Thanked 36 Times in 21 Posts	I also have a special place in my heart for byf Lugers.. They are very nice. Congratulations with it! __________________ Previously known as Morgan Kane

09-18-2006, 08:17 PM	#19
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,916 Thanks: 1,995 Thanked 4,507 Times in 2,081 Posts	Mr. W. David, well, I have a byf coming to me, so let me eat a little crow and I'll join the "black widow" league, my apologies ed

09-18-2006, 09:20 PM	#20
Parabellus User Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: SF Bay Posts: 195 Thanks: 16 Thanked 9 Times in 4 Posts	More of a black widowmaker, if you catch my drift. Now you guys are getting me interested in these. Let me go see what KrausewerK has under the glass tomorrow. Russell __________________