Value and oppinions on a 1936 S/42 I might buy.

Zamo · 06-19-2010, 02:07 AM

Can anyone hazard to venture a value on this 1936 S/42? All matching numbers 3899h. Finish is worn to bare metal on typical raised edges and rear of toggle. Some freckling along grip straps. Straw starting to fade to silver-ish. Nice bore. non-matching magazine, and no serial number on the inside of the grips, though there is some letter proofs:

From what I see, it looks OK, but I have missed details in the past. Anything wrong?
What should I realistically be willing to pay. I've been wanting a '36 for some time, and this is the nicest one I've found in my price range (seller wants $1400).

Thanks in advance!

Norme · 06-19-2010, 07:35 AM

Hi Christian, I don't see anything wrong with this gun. 1936 S/42s usually have unnumbered grips. Is the magazine blued or plated? Regards, Norm

Zamo · 06-20-2010, 08:04 PM

Sending it back. Upon receipt the "All matching except the mag" the ad talked about turned out to have a mis-matched toggle pivot pin. Hopefully the return will proceed without issue, and I'll just be out some shipping.

MFC · 06-21-2010, 12:16 AM

Christian,
That has happened to me a several times. There descriptions (#'s matching) were wrong. In each case I asked the seller to reimburse me fully including shipping both ways. Each time I got all money back. It doesn't hurt to ask.

deepdarkwoodsman · 06-21-2010, 12:13 PM

I agree.

You should push for the full refund. If this gun was advertised as all-matching, it is their problem, not yours. This type of misrepesentation is at best incompetence, and at worst, dishonesty. Either way, it is not someone you want to deal with again.

I found out the hard way what "all-matching" means to some sellers. I tried to buy an "all-matching" black widow rig from a major dealer (who this forum is very familiar with). Turned out that the holdopen was mismatched, the tool was 63-proofed, and the second magazine was actually marked "made in Italy". None of this was pictured in the images or stated in the historical fluff that this seller includes on his website.

A heated discussion ensued, and because the gun was on layaway, he refused to give me a full refund. He kept $500 for the "inconvenience" I caused him.

Always ask about the grips, rear toggle pin, and holdopen when contemplating a purchase. These are the parts that are not routinely pictured. And never put an item on layaway. This forfeits your three-day inspection.

One of my collecting buddies always told me, "You're not a collector until you get taken at least once." It's official, I am a collector.

Just my two cents.

Doug

Tomathvl · 06-21-2010, 04:39 PM

Doug,
How about a name? It will help others to stay away from this guy.
Tom

c3006 · 06-21-2010, 05:01 PM

Hard for me to understand how a pistol in that good of shape could keep all its matching parts together except the toggle pivot pin. A part that should never break or wear out. But then who knows. c

wlyon · 06-21-2010, 06:15 PM

I must be abnormal or to old. If the price is right,( or ask for a small reduction) a mismatched toggle pin would not stop me from purchasing. I doubt if the owner ever noticed. I think we expect to much from these old firearms. Just my two cents. Bill

Zamo · 06-22-2010, 01:00 AM

Bill, the note I sent the seller informing him of my decision did include a counter offer to keep it for a reduced sum, but I was looking to pay a premium for what was advertised as an "all matching" collectible piece. I've had eight or nine nice Lugers over the years, and all but one were all matching. Despite the increase in their values over the years, I'm not going to pay a full premium price for a mismatched pistol no matter how relative the values have become. I have lots of firearms, and the passion I have for Lugers in particular is dulled enough from experience, that I can be picky.

We'll see if the seller bites at my reduced offer or not. I'll post the results. They were closed today (Monday) so I'll probably hear from them in the A.M. (Hopefully).
-Chris

deepdarkwoodsman · 06-22-2010, 01:24 AM

Tom/Bill:

I don't want to name names. But this gentleman is a major dealer not located in Texas, Minnesota, Illinois, or Ohio. I will also tell you it is definitely not FGS. I have purchased at least 15 guns from Doug and Ken. Not one was misrepresented and I have been extremely satisfied with every purchase. As a result of my past experience, I will not deal with anyone but FGS.

Bill:

I agree a mismatched toggle pin would not preclude me from purchasing a gun if the price was right. However, if the gun was advertised as "all-matching", I would not be happy to find out the toggle pin was mismatched after the transaction was made. Maybe it was an innocent mistake, but a seller that does not notice this is not someone I would want to deal with.

In my case, the seller represented himself as having "35 years of collecting experience". When an "all-matched black widow rig" from this seller arrives with a mismatched holdopen, a 63-proofed tool, and an after-market spare magazine, it is fraud, plain and simple. This kind of unscrupulous business practice is a disgrace to our hobby.

My point is protect yourself when purchasing items on the internet. Consider paying the extra 3% and use a credit card. The credit card company has the power to make things right in the case of a dispute, you don't. Don't put an item on layaway unless you have seen the gun in person or you have a good relationship with the seller.

Thanks for reading.

Doug

wlyon · 06-22-2010, 09:55 PM

Doug/Cris
I think we are all pretty much saying the same thing. One word of caution on using a credit car, some dealers charge a restocking fee if bought with a credit card and returned. This cost me $150 on a return to Simpson's. Bill

CAP Black · 03-12-2011, 09:11 AM

How much would the price be influenced by the toggle pivot pin being a bad number? I just purchased a 1936 advertised as all matching and the seller, after I won the bid, said he had never looked inside. I'm looking for a price reduction. The deal went thru a gun shop that I think I can put some heat on if not made right.
Thanks for your help.

JRS · 03-12-2011, 04:41 PM

Does the toggle link pin bear a number that does not match the other numbers or is it just blank and smooth on both ends. If it's that big a deal, take the pin to a gunsmith and have him bang home any number of your choice.

alanint · 03-12-2011, 05:14 PM

We do not boost collectable pieces in this way. If the gun is ever sold again the new buyer is getting a fraudulently matched gun.

Norme · 03-12-2011, 05:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CAP Black

How much would the price be influenced by the toggle pivot pin being a bad number? I just purchased a 1936 advertised as all matching and the seller, after I won the bid, said he had never looked inside. I'm looking for a price reduction. The deal went thru a gun shop that I think I can put some heat on if not made right.
Thanks for your help.

Hi Jack, As to your question, I think it depends on the gun's condition. If you're talking about a high end collectible, say $2,000 plus, I think you would take a huge hit, as much as 25%. If a border line shooter at under $1,000, little if anything. Regards, Norm

JRS · 03-13-2011, 11:49 AM

This business of all-matching numbers on guns opens many doors to dishonesty. Years ago when I collected WWII U.S. small arms, I knew a fellow who went around buying up inexpensive non-original Garands and carbines. He would disassemble them and pair up the matching trigger assemlys, receivers, etc. ala Winchester, Springfield, International Harvester and sell them off as original issue at a premium price. An original issue Garand or carbine is almost an impossibility, since almost all of them were wartime arsenal reworks. So, why were the Germans any different? Maybe a lot of so-called matching Lugers are arsenal reworks or just plain "gotcha" guns put together by an enterprising crook.

Dprado · 03-20-2011, 02:22 PM

Zamo

I do have a all matching except mag 1936 in great shape right in your price range as stated above if your still looking PM me.

CAP Black · 04-14-2011, 04:07 PM

This gun had a mismatched number on the toggle pin. I got the seller to knock off $ 300 for that problem. The gun is in good shape with some "blood rust" as described on it. The "blood" appeared to be still on it. I cleaned that all off and now the gun has some bare areas of the bluing. I only have about $600 in it. I'm quite pleased with the gun and the price. Will continue to look for the right toggle pin.
Jack

06-19-2010, 02:07 AM	#1
Zamo User Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Washington State Posts: 142 Thanks: 4 Thanked 13 Times in 9 Posts	Value and oppinions on a 1936 S/42 I might buy. Can anyone hazard to venture a value on this 1936 S/42? All matching numbers 3899h. Finish is worn to bare metal on typical raised edges and rear of toggle. Some freckling along grip straps. Straw starting to fade to silver-ish. Nice bore. non-matching magazine, and no serial number on the inside of the grips, though there is some letter proofs: From what I see, it looks OK, but I have missed details in the past. Anything wrong? What should I realistically be willing to pay. I've been wanting a '36 for some time, and this is the nicest one I've found in my price range (seller wants $1400). Thanks in advance! __________________ <INSERT WITTY SAYING HERE> My collection: http://home.comcast.net/~gunspotz/guns.htm

06-20-2010, 08:04 PM	#3
Zamo User Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Washington State Posts: 142 Thanks: 4 Thanked 13 Times in 9 Posts	Sending it back. Upon receipt the "All matching except the mag" the ad talked about turned out to have a mis-matched toggle pivot pin. Hopefully the return will proceed without issue, and I'll just be out some shipping. __________________ <INSERT WITTY SAYING HERE> My collection: http://home.comcast.net/~gunspotz/guns.htm

06-21-2010, 12:16 AM	#4
MFC User Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Louisiana Posts: 1,237 Thanks: 183 Thanked 281 Times in 162 Posts	Christian, That has happened to me a several times. There descriptions (#'s matching) were wrong. In each case I asked the seller to reimburse me fully including shipping both ways. Each time I got all money back. It doesn't hurt to ask. __________________ Mike C.

06-21-2010, 05:01 PM	#7
c3006 User Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: east tn Posts: 526 Thanks: 5 Thanked 12 Times in 5 Posts	Hard for me to understand how a pistol in that good of shape could keep all its matching parts together except the toggle pivot pin. A part that should never break or wear out. But then who knows. c __________________ Men Accustomed unto thier arms and their liberties will never endure the yoke. James Harrington 1776

06-21-2010, 06:15 PM	#8
wlyon Lifer 2X Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: May 2005 Location: Somewhere in Montana Posts: 2,619 Thanks: 3,144 Thanked 2,531 Times in 943 Posts	I must be abnormal or to old. If the price is right,( or ask for a small reduction) a mismatched toggle pin would not stop me from purchasing. I doubt if the owner ever noticed. I think we expect to much from these old firearms. Just my two cents. Bill __________________ Bill Lyon

06-19-2010, 07:35 AM	#2
Norme Always A Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Colorado Posts: 2,415 Thanks: 225 Thanked 2,594 Times in 931 Posts	Hi Christian, I don't see anything wrong with this gun. 1936 S/42s usually have unnumbered grips. Is the magazine blued or plated? Regards, Norm

06-21-2010, 12:13 PM	#5
deepdarkwoodsman User Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: North Carolina Posts: 38 Thanks: 1 Thanked 5 Times in 1 Post	I agree. You should push for the full refund. If this gun was advertised as all-matching, it is their problem, not yours. This type of misrepesentation is at best incompetence, and at worst, dishonesty. Either way, it is not someone you want to deal with again. I found out the hard way what "all-matching" means to some sellers. I tried to buy an "all-matching" black widow rig from a major dealer (who this forum is very familiar with). Turned out that the holdopen was mismatched, the tool was 63-proofed, and the second magazine was actually marked "made in Italy". None of this was pictured in the images or stated in the historical fluff that this seller includes on his website. A heated discussion ensued, and because the gun was on layaway, he refused to give me a full refund. He kept $500 for the "inconvenience" I caused him. Always ask about the grips, rear toggle pin, and holdopen when contemplating a purchase. These are the parts that are not routinely pictured. And never put an item on layaway. This forfeits your three-day inspection. One of my collecting buddies always told me, "You're not a collector until you get taken at least once." It's official, I am a collector. Just my two cents. Doug

06-21-2010, 04:39 PM	#6
Tomathvl User Join Date: May 2004 Location: Milan, IN Posts: 363 Thanks: 3 Thanked 48 Times in 19 Posts	Doug, How about a name? It will help others to stay away from this guy. Tom

06-22-2010, 01:00 AM	#9
Zamo User Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Washington State Posts: 142 Thanks: 4 Thanked 13 Times in 9 Posts	Bill, the note I sent the seller informing him of my decision did include a counter offer to keep it for a reduced sum, but I was looking to pay a premium for what was advertised as an "all matching" collectible piece. I've had eight or nine nice Lugers over the years, and all but one were all matching. Despite the increase in their values over the years, I'm not going to pay a full premium price for a mismatched pistol no matter how relative the values have become. I have lots of firearms, and the passion I have for Lugers in particular is dulled enough from experience, that I can be picky. We'll see if the seller bites at my reduced offer or not. I'll post the results. They were closed today (Monday) so I'll probably hear from them in the A.M. (Hopefully). -Chris __________________ <INSERT WITTY SAYING HERE> My collection: http://home.comcast.net/~gunspotz/guns.htm

06-22-2010, 01:24 AM	#10
deepdarkwoodsman User Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: North Carolina Posts: 38 Thanks: 1 Thanked 5 Times in 1 Post	Tom/Bill: I don't want to name names. But this gentleman is a major dealer not located in Texas, Minnesota, Illinois, or Ohio. I will also tell you it is definitely not FGS. I have purchased at least 15 guns from Doug and Ken. Not one was misrepresented and I have been extremely satisfied with every purchase. As a result of my past experience, I will not deal with anyone but FGS. Bill: I agree a mismatched toggle pin would not preclude me from purchasing a gun if the price was right. However, if the gun was advertised as "all-matching", I would not be happy to find out the toggle pin was mismatched after the transaction was made. Maybe it was an innocent mistake, but a seller that does not notice this is not someone I would want to deal with. In my case, the seller represented himself as having "35 years of collecting experience". When an "all-matched black widow rig" from this seller arrives with a mismatched holdopen, a 63-proofed tool, and an after-market spare magazine, it is fraud, plain and simple. This kind of unscrupulous business practice is a disgrace to our hobby. My point is protect yourself when purchasing items on the internet. Consider paying the extra 3% and use a credit card. The credit card company has the power to make things right in the case of a dispute, you don't. Don't put an item on layaway unless you have seen the gun in person or you have a good relationship with the seller. Thanks for reading. Doug

06-22-2010, 09:55 PM	#11
wlyon Lifer 2X Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: May 2005 Location: Somewhere in Montana Posts: 2,619 Thanks: 3,144 Thanked 2,531 Times in 943 Posts	Doug/Cris I think we are all pretty much saying the same thing. One word of caution on using a credit car, some dealers charge a restocking fee if bought with a credit card and returned. This cost me $150 on a return to Simpson's. Bill __________________ Bill Lyon

03-12-2011, 09:11 AM	#12
CAP Black User Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Fairmont, WV Right here in Mountaineer country and God's country Posts: 767 Thanks: 100 Thanked 168 Times in 96 Posts	How much would the price be influenced by the toggle pivot pin being a bad number? I just purchased a 1936 advertised as all matching and the seller, after I won the bid, said he had never looked inside. I'm looking for a price reduction. The deal went thru a gun shop that I think I can put some heat on if not made right. Thanks for your help.

03-12-2011, 04:41 PM	#13
JRS User Join Date: May 2010 Location: Virginia Beach, VA 23452 Posts: 81 Thanks: 0 Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts	Does the toggle link pin bear a number that does not match the other numbers or is it just blank and smooth on both ends. If it's that big a deal, take the pin to a gunsmith and have him bang home any number of your choice.

03-12-2011, 05:14 PM	#14
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,916 Times in 1,192 Posts	We do not boost collectable pieces in this way. If the gun is ever sold again the new buyer is getting a fraudulently matched gun.

03-13-2011, 11:49 AM	#16
JRS User Join Date: May 2010 Location: Virginia Beach, VA 23452 Posts: 81 Thanks: 0 Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts	This business of all-matching numbers on guns opens many doors to dishonesty. Years ago when I collected WWII U.S. small arms, I knew a fellow who went around buying up inexpensive non-original Garands and carbines. He would disassemble them and pair up the matching trigger assemlys, receivers, etc. ala Winchester, Springfield, International Harvester and sell them off as original issue at a premium price. An original issue Garand or carbine is almost an impossibility, since almost all of them were wartime arsenal reworks. So, why were the Germans any different? Maybe a lot of so-called matching Lugers are arsenal reworks or just plain "gotcha" guns put together by an enterprising crook.

03-20-2011, 02:22 PM	#17
Dprado User Join Date: Feb 2011 Posts: 7 Thanks: 6 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Zamo I do have a all matching except mag 1936 in great shape right in your price range as stated above if your still looking PM me.

04-14-2011, 04:07 PM	#18
CAP Black User Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Fairmont, WV Right here in Mountaineer country and God's country Posts: 767 Thanks: 100 Thanked 168 Times in 96 Posts	This gun had a mismatched number on the toggle pin. I got the seller to knock off $ 300 for that problem. The gun is in good shape with some "blood rust" as described on it. The "blood" appeared to be still on it. I cleaned that all off and now the gun has some bare areas of the bluing. I only have about $600 in it. I'm quite pleased with the gun and the price. Will continue to look for the right toggle pin. Jack