WWI Bayonet

[MFC]

I've seen the stamps on my dad's bayonet several times in the past years since I was a kid, but they didn't have any meaning to me until I joined this forum.
I was visiting my dad last father's day and we once again took out all of the things he brought back from Germany in 1945. We've only done this maybe 5 or 6 times over the years that I can remember. Well, when I saw the maker of the bayonet stamped on the blade, my jaw dropped. This time it meant something.
Mike C.

Here's the pics.

[MFC]

That didn't work.
Help Ed.
Mike C.

[Edward Tinker]

It is funny how something doesn't strike a bell until later when you find out some more information. I don't know a lot about simson making WW1 bayonets, although they, along with about 20 other manufacturers made several styles of bayonets during ww1 and into the weimar era. 100,000 of thousands were made. In addition, Simson had the sole contract to refurbish and make arms for the Reichswehr through the weimar period.

This appears to be a model 98/05 bayo, made in WW1 and used throught the weimar and WW2 eras.

[MFC]

Ed,
Thanks for the info. and for posting the pics.
There is a picture of another one that looks the same on pg. 109 of Weimar and early Nazi Lugers.
Mike C.

[Edward Tinker]

I bought Seitengewehr; history of the German Bayonet 1919-1945 by George T. Wheeler, a really outstanding book and one that has become a grab-it when I want to chill out and read (on the same stack of books as Still, Gibson, and my Japanese book).


Ed

[MFC]

Ed,
Do you or anyone else know if Erfurt made bayonets and Lugers? This won't be in your book because Erfurt stopped making Lugers, and I would assume anything else around 1917 or before. Unless it shows it as being refurbished by Simson or one of the other 20 manufacturers you stated earlier.
The reason I ask is that the bayonet has Imperial proofs on every seperate part, even on the grip screws (actually nuts and bolts) just like Erfurt Lugers. And then refurbished by Simson. Or maybe Simson manufactured it and used the same technique and the same or simular proofs as Erfurt.
Thanks,
Mike C.

[graf98a]

Erfurt made bayonets up to 1915 (significant numbers..) they made the Sg98 until 1907 or so; the Sg98/05 and 84/98 II to 1915.
Naturally Simson Suhl being so close to Erfurt (both in Th�¼ringen) meant they had a relationship, - and Simson Suhl did far more than make bayonets even before the Great War, - or post war make & rework the P08 etc.. they were a significant mfg considering their size and even before Weimar era they worked conversion bayonets, made spares for several projects (MG production as well as rifle production- to Mauser Oberndorf, Saxons etc..) they also made fuzes for artillery, they even made swords..
Simson Suhl bayonets are generally not rare or scarce, though some of the early Sg98's certainly can be.. they had a naval contract early on and some are marked to the Seebataillon units (only Erfurt and Simson Suhl so far I have observed..) generally Simson Suhl had a relationship with the Saxons, and they were a well regarded mfg during the Great War.

Postwar is another story, - still a well run and quality producer but they picked up more than their fair share of enemies along the way (not that they had a bunch of friends before the Great War- DWM made some trouble for them early in the Great War- not that DWM got along with any competitors?)
The nazi's put the final touches on Simson Suhl, with some help from other "unfriendlies" like Fritz Walther.. ahh a long story, that I am sure Ed covers in great detail coming up in a couple months!

Look forward to your book on Simson Suhl, - not a lot on Simson out there, at least in English.. Simson Suhl has been an interest of mine for some time and my German is terrible! (surprising number of works exist in German, though naturally they focus primarily on the 1930-1935 period where it gets a bit nasty for the Simson brothers..)

[graf98a]

I might add that Erfurt did more than the P08 or bayonets.. they made MG's, both versions of the Modell 98 rifle (Gewehr98 & Kar98a)- actually if Erfurt is famous for anything its the HUGE numbers of the Kar98a they made.. that was their primary function in many ways during the war as from 1915-1917 they were the "only" mfg of this critical rifle, later doctrinal issues made it more important, so important in fact, the Prussian arsenal at Danzig took up production of the Kar98a again (they had stopped in 1914 to focus on the Gewehr98 -which they certainly did - also in huge numbers)

Erfurt played a significant role in managing/helping the Suhl firms also.

[MFC]

Paul,
Thanks for the great info. What do I need to look for to determine if Simson was the actual manufacturer or if they refurbished it.
Also, what are your thoughts about all the proofs everywhere, simular too Erfurt Lugers. Did Simson also do this? Are Simson proofs different from Erfurt proofs?
Thanks,
Mike C.

[Edward Tinker]

I am not sure of the difference in the Simson versus Erfurt acceptances. I do know that Simson made tens of thousands of WW1 era bayonets...

And if you are talking lugers, I personally feel that many workers moved from erfurt to Suhl (Simson area) after WW1. Jobs went away and they just moved with the equipment to Suhl. If they did not move, then by-gum, they followed the earlier regulations TO THE LETTER, as the markings for Simson lugers are almost an exact and in fact have more acceptance and proofs than Erfurts do.

Ed

[graf98a]

If the mfg is Simson then they made the bayonet; - Simson converted older versions as well, the Sg69 were converted to Sg69/98 by Simson (over 20,000)- repairs of rifles and bayonets were often done in the rear, interestingly largely in Artillery depots, this is where battlefield rifles etc.. were collected, sorted to needs and if simple repaired/cleaned stored/ re-issued, if more complicated work was needed it would send them to the arsenals.
Whether P08 is the same I suspect so, though to Erfurt of DWM one would think if more than a simple process is required?

Erfurt like all the state arsenals worked on a different level, a different perspective, though all were concerned with working together for the same goal, namely many of the arsenals (and Simson a special case certainly included with its responsibilities to the Saxon/Dresden depot) were tasked with "parts" supply for others to assemble rifles etc.. The idea being the more complicated parts were bottlenecks to production and the arsenals would make such parts enmass to facilitate other facilities production- Erfurt for example did trigger guards enmass and this shows on rifle sporting Erfurt acceptance c/frakturs.
Simson too had contracts for spares that were largely supplied to Dresden, - most every concern was involved to their ability in some sort for this process, Simson Suhl simply was "better" at it apparently (they certainly met expectations where many didn't)


All bayonets will have acceptance, a final with cypher of course but especially on early pre-war every imaginable part can and would be acceptanced- screws you name it.. Simson made bayonets very early- 1910 on for the Sg90/05 such as yours (very scarce pre-war- I have only seen a handful, and I am a Simson fanatic..) the Sg98 very early as well, some not donâ??t dated in naval practice with the cypher, my SB Sg98 made by Simson isn't.
Generally most Simson products were for the Saxons and have their "style" of acceptance/proof, which is somewhat different style than Prussian.

Yes Simson "acceptance" and proofs are different than Erfurts, Simson's changed at times, and product. Apparently Dresden set up an inspection office for Simson for their contracts, though Erfurt helped as well, especially early on with DWM's arrogant attitude towards a commercial competitor, which was eventually overcome.

Postwar, Ed is right, they did have a lot of variation to acceptance, and following it sometimes is interesting- I think dates are an issue with some of the acceptance (e/67 & e/81 comes to mind as it seems to have a "time" issue as it relates to the Gew98M reworks Simson did post war.. the e/6 is so typical some I think only associate e/6 with Simson but as Ed alluded to there were a good number, most I only have limited observations on)

Originally posted by MFC
Paul,
Thanks for the great info. What do I need to look for to determine if Simson was the actual manufacturer or if they refurbished it.
Also, what are your thoughts about all the proofs everywhere, simular too Erfurt Lugers. Did Simson also do this? Are Simson proofs different from Erfurt proofs?
Thanks,
Mike C.

[graf98a]

Clarification; bayonet makers, whether the other Suhl mfg (VCS, Simson, CGH all made the Sg98/05- though with the Suhl consortium they collaborated with one another, Simson apparently less so being out of the loop?) or otherwise often did depend on other firms to finish their contracts (blade blanks in particular, which are often marked, clearly or under the grips), I have never read where this occurred with Simson, they very well could have though- just never read that such occurred with them -many did and is often the reason behind their "failureâ?� to meet contracts which "usually" ended further contracts, Simson continued with theirs (and sought further) and seems more self sufficient than most other firms.

Another, - I would "think" that Erfurt would be the first choice for repair over a commercial firm such as DWM for the P08, namely because of cost? Certainly in Simson's case they were passed over at times for cost savings and work done at the depots instead (the 98b conversion program for instance..) generally the existence of the arsenals were somewhat justified as a counter to the commercial firms, and though not always cheaper (Amberg for instance with their small long contracts).
During the war, areas were assigned to the depots and they most certainly to the closest arsenal, DWM probably did get their fair share but the wastage on the P08 had to be less than rifles so the rules might not apply?

Just random thoughts- from a rifle collector... not always good for P08 collectors.

[Edward Tinker]

graf, hopefully a "rewrite" of areas won't occur, as Graham and I should have found you sooner! (and I don't think there are errors, but as things are learned...)

The E/67 and E/81 only appear in the "a" suffix, Unless we come up with specific dates of a pistol with a marking, we guessed a date of around 1932 - 1934 for the "a" suffix. Don Maus is working on police guns and spcifically a Simson or two that has police markings and this might help nail down some dates.

As you also said, as we find other collectors of diverse Simson items, the date also might be nailed down closer. One thing I was curious was that the Simson firm made machineguns, and yet the few collectors I talked too had never seen E/6 or E/33 on the guns. Yet, it would make sense they did so... Unless the rifles, machineguns, etc were accepted by another inspector, thus did not get E6 or E33 (or the like).

Ed

[MFC]

Thanks guys,
This is fascinating. I'm glad to find out that it was made by Simson and is scarce.
I'll take another picture of the top edge of the blade with a group of proofs or acceptance marks tomorrow night.
Please explain the cypher to a newbie on the subject.
Also, were the blades sharpened after they were issued? This one isn't, and the whole thing looks almost unused.
Mike C.

[Edward Tinker]

photo posted for Mike. There were literally tens of thousands of bayonets made in WW1 (before and after), many modified also. If you go to ebay and put in Simson Suhl yoou will see 3-6 for sale at any one time.


Ed

[graf98a]

So do I, had I found your effort sooner perhaps you'd considered some information I may be able to provide- perhaps on a 2nd edition if you decide such is necessary?

I agree, sort of, on your time line, I'd say closer to 1932 though, very possibly earlier for e/81 (from a rifle perspective anyway..)
I spoke with a knowledgeable friend on the Weimar era as to your query, early Simson MG production is scarce and to attribute much to them is difficult, I personally have never seen a MG13 or even really detail pictures of them, - certainly nothing more than you undoubtedly have seen?
I do follow BSW fascination with the Flak and MG lines but then again not quite the same..

I have found rifles made or reworked by Simson show remarkably the same acceptance (as far as I have been able to gather from following P08 postings from Simson Suhl); though one must remember the 98b is every bit as scarce and desirable as the Simson P08 so not a huge amount of examples to base opinions by (original, non-reworked even more are difficult to come by..); imaged for you is my rearsight from my 1917/1920 Simson Suhl rework done by Simson Suhl, very probably in the early 30's, unit marked to a training unit, - I might add that "most" Simson reworks (or HZa reworks to Gew98M) show very little evidence of acceptance, normally the rearsight, rear band or stock acceptance are the determining factors.
e/81 has been seen on rear sights and the occasional bolt, not much else and all seem to fit your time line - roughly...

As to the 1915 Simson Sg98/05, I totally agree, not rare or even scarce, though I find them more desirable than the run of the mill Erfurt or whatever all else being equal but that is surely simply my bias for all things Simson Suhl?

Originally posted by Edward Tinker
graf, hopefully a "rewrite" of areas won't occur, as Graham and I should have found you sooner! (and I don't think there are errors, but as things are learned...)

The E/67 and E/81 only appear in the "a" suffix, Unless we come up with specific dates of a pistol with a marking, we guessed a date of around 1932 - 1934 for the "a" suffix. Don Maus is working on police guns and spcifically a Simson or two that has police markings and this might help nail down some dates.

As you also said, as we find other collectors of diverse Simson items, the date also might be nailed down closer. One thing I was curious was that the Simson firm made machineguns, and yet the few collectors I talked too had never seen E/6 or E/33 on the guns. Yet, it would make sense they did so... Unless the rifles, machineguns, etc were accepted by another inspector, thus did not get E6 or E33 (or the like).

Ed

[Edward Tinker]

the E/81 is only after the "a" suffix starts and is in a grouping of a police run of lugers; then shortly afterwards, they go back to marking everything as E6 E6 E6 E and never use the E/81 or E/67 again?? (sn 11a - up to 645a)

I can not directly attribute that the E67 or E81 is only a police inspector, as there is a lot of ones without police charecteristics. In this sn range, I have 24 proofs on the right, with 15 as sear and/or magazine safetys {{I have a total of 28 sear declared safetys sn's, but do not have full info on them, and that is JUST in this sn range))

Are there anyways to prove that the rifles were refurbished or made for police? What training unit is it? The S marking is interesting also, as the S is intermixed with the Simson & Co marking, no stopping of the Simson & Co, which would make sense if they had switched to it...


Ed

[graf98a]

The "S" is often found with Simson acceptance, - obviously attributed to Simson Suhl, this example rifle has e/6 & e/76 accepted barrel with the "S" as is typical. (also a rearband upgrade acceptance e/6)
The unit is the 15th InfReg Training Company; I will upload a pic of the barrel, its a cool rifle as its the only Gew98M done by Simson, originally made by Simson...
In the AutoMag, next to last issue, and on the website Dwight went over some of his thought to this "S" and his seeking answers as it relates to the circle aspects, - I can't say I have seen any such "circled "S" logo" or what ever used beyond the P08? I will say the "S" in several forms is very common and near universal in one form or another as it relates to Simson products during the postwar era.
I had some thoughts when I first read the article but off hand I forgot my line of thought, though it could very well be unrelated to Dwightâ??s exact query.

Was a good article though.

Originally posted by Edward Tinker
the E/81 is only after the "a" suffix starts and is in a grouping of a police run of lugers; then shortly afterwards, they go back to marking everything as E6 E6 E6 E and never use the E/81 or E/67 again?? (sn 11a - up to 645a)

I can not directly attribute that the E67 or E81 is only a police inspector, as there is a lot of ones without police charecteristics. In this sn range, I have 24 proofs on the right, with 15 as sear and/or magazine safetys {{I have a total of 28 sear declared safetys sn's, but do not have full info on them, and that is JUST in this sn range))

Are there anyways to prove that the rifles were refurbished or made for police? What training unit is it? The S marking is interesting also, as the S is intermixed with the Simson & Co marking, no stopping of the Simson & Co, which would make sense if they had switched to it...


Ed

[graf98a]

Training Company of the 15th InfReg

[Edward Tinker]

Interesting. Yes, Dwight (and me and Don) have been interested in the Circle S, I do not believe it is for Simson.

The "S" that you see on a few luger magazines and on the toggles is more unusual than usual.

How often have you seen it on rifles and the like? To any collectors, if it is an "S", it must be Simson, but it could also be Suhl, Schmeisser, Saur, etc., although likely and thought of by collectors is for Simson, as it is seen on Simson ad's and triangle S.


In my fact finding, I try to use the geneology standard, prove it to me from at least two unrelated facts to prove anything It is not always easy to do, but convinces me a lot more

Ed