Japanese Mum Luger

alanint · 07-21-2018, 06:35 PM

This is floating around the net again.

Thoughts on definitive answer to this?

I've always understood that they are fakes.

sheepherder · 07-21-2018, 07:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alanint

This is floating around the net again.

Thoughts on definitive answer to this?

I've always understood that they are fakes.

You got a link???

Edward Tinker · 07-21-2018, 08:19 PM

fakes

DonVoigt · 07-21-2018, 08:31 PM

Been "debunked" several times. Total fake.
The Japanese didn't even put "mums" on their own made pistols!

alanint · 07-21-2018, 08:55 PM

Here goes?

Ron Wood · 07-21-2018, 09:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alanint

...I've always understood that they are fakes.

What you have always understood still holds true.
Ron

HerrKaiser · 07-21-2018, 09:46 PM

The Japanese did take captured Dutch Lugers, but these were used in semi-official capacities and never marked by Japanese armories.

sheepherder · 07-21-2018, 10:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alanint

Here goes?

Good shot!

I sort of vaguely remember, in an old-mans memory, that it was sacrilegious to allow weapons with the Chrysanthemum to fall into US hands...

Here's one explanation -

https://www.gunboards.com/sites/banz...MissingMum.htm

Hey, here's a stamping die from an old guy in Prior Lake!

Zorba · 07-22-2018, 02:28 AM

Hmmm, I have a gun with Elven runes on it, it must have been made in Valinor...

hayhugh · 07-22-2018, 03:54 AM

Quote:

Been "debunked" several times. Total fake.
The Japanese didn't even put "mums" on their own made pistols!
__________________
03man(Don Voigt); Luger student and collector.
Looking for DWM side plates: 14, 17, 41, 45; Art. luger rear sight slide # 03

Not a photo of my Baby Nambu but photo showing "mum" on cocking piece.

DonVoigt · 07-22-2018, 07:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hayhugh

Not a photo of my Baby Nambu but photo showing "mum" on cocking piece.

Sorry Hugh, but that is not a "mum"; it is simply machining for a better grip to remove. All the T 38 and T 99 rifles and carbines have a similar pattern on their safety, for "grip" when turning.

The "Mum" is a very specific flower with a certain number of petals, which is only used for the Emperor of Japan- I believe the Emperor's mum has 18 petals, and the "regular" mum only 16. But I could be off on the petal count, the significance is that they are different and the pattern on the Baby safety is not a mum with petals.

alanint · 07-23-2018, 08:25 AM

Well, the mouth breathers over on this "collector's" site are still arguing convoluted scenarios where this Luger might be possible. There is no reasoning with them.
I am convinced that if I engraved an R2D2 on a Luger, I could get an internet expert to argue a time travel scenario.

sheepherder · 07-23-2018, 08:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zorba

Hmmm, I have a gun with Elven runes on it, it must have been made in Valinor...

Pictures!

Edward Tinker · 07-23-2018, 09:25 AM

On Facebook it is being argued, unsure of any other site today. However, I have looked at a couple - I think never in person.
From what I understand;
**the writing doesn't make much sense
***Chrysanthemum wouldn't be on a pistol - not on T14 nor a T94
****One argument is that it is in Mike Jones book (so early that it likely isn't a fake is the thought process)
*****So few of these - shouldn't there be scores that come up?

sheepherder · 07-23-2018, 11:33 AM

There is one in Harry Jone's book Luger Variations pg 209, pub 1959.

Datig also mentions the possibility of Japanese 'Mum' Lugers (but no pictures) in the 1958 revised printing of The Luger Pistol.

As with the Totenkopf Luger(s), I seriously doubt that anyone in 1959 (or earlier) would have bothered faking a less than $50 Luger...

IMO there must have been at least one with the markings. Maybe not an 'official' stamping, but realistic enough to convince the experts of that period.

DonVoigt · 07-23-2018, 12:23 PM

"As with the Totenkopf Luger(s), I seriously doubt that anyone in 1959 (or earlier) would have bothered faking a less than $50 Luger...

IMO there must have been at least one with the markings. Maybe not an 'official' stamping, but realistic enough to convince the experts of that period. "

Well, could have been an early Shattuck boost, nothing like taking a $50 pistol and making a $200 pistol out of it!

JMHO.

sheepherder · 07-23-2018, 12:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DonVoigt

Well, could have been an early Shattuck boost...

Did Shattuck ever list or show a 'Mum' Luger to any of his many friends here??? He could have had one of the 'real' Mum Lugers...Or been sold one...

BTW: Jone's pictures show the Japanese 'Mum" Luger as being in the Russ Storer Collection, and shows 'Gesichert' as the safety marking (not 'Rust').

wlyon · 07-23-2018, 01:06 PM

Anyone who says never on lugers has 1. not been around long or 2 Has not looked or studied lugers. Bill

Edward Tinker · 07-23-2018, 02:01 PM

I did not see a Japanese marked Luger on Shattucks personal collection document

hayhugh · 07-23-2018, 03:48 PM

It was not back from the shop yet...

07-21-2018, 06:35 PM	#1
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,916 Times in 1,192 Posts	Japanese Mum Luger This is floating around the net again. Thoughts on definitive answer to this? I've always understood that they are fakes.

07-21-2018, 08:31 PM	#4
DonVoigt User Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: near Charlotte NC Posts: 4,677 Thanks: 1,440 Thanked 4,348 Times in 2,038 Posts	Been "debunked" several times. Total fake. The Japanese didn't even put "mums" on their own made pistols! __________________ 03man(Don Voigt); Luger student and collector. Looking for DWM side plate: 69 ; Dreyse 1907 pistol K.S. Gendarmerie

07-21-2018, 08:55 PM	#5
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,916 Times in 1,192 Posts	Here goes? Attached Thumbnails

07-21-2018, 09:46 PM	#7
HerrKaiser User Join Date: Feb 2018 Location: South Carolina Posts: 805 Thanks: 752 Thanked 801 Times in 379 Posts	The Japanese did take captured Dutch Lugers, but these were used in semi-official capacities and never marked by Japanese armories. __________________ -QM Looking for Mauser S/42 toggle train #22

07-23-2018, 11:33 AM	#15
sheepherder Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: ...on the 'ol Erie Canal... Posts: 8,182 Thanks: 1,398 Thanked 4,440 Times in 2,328 Posts	There is one in Harry Jone's book Luger Variations pg 209, pub 1959. Datig also mentions the possibility of Japanese 'Mum' Lugers (but no pictures) in the 1958 revised printing of The Luger Pistol. As with the Totenkopf Luger(s), I seriously doubt that anyone in 1959 (or earlier) would have bothered faking a less than $50 Luger... IMO there must have been at least one with the markings. Maybe not an 'official' stamping, but realistic enough to convince the experts of that period. Attached Thumbnails __________________ I like my coffee the way I like my women... ...Cold and bitter...

07-21-2018, 08:19 PM	#3
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,915 Thanks: 1,989 Thanked 4,506 Times in 2,080 Posts	fakes

07-22-2018, 02:28 AM	#9
Zorba User Join Date: Feb 2013 Location: Merritt Island, Fl Posts: 951 Thanks: 776 Thanked 526 Times in 289 Posts	Hmmm, I have a gun with Elven runes on it, it must have been made in Valinor...

07-23-2018, 08:25 AM	#12
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,916 Times in 1,192 Posts	Well, the mouth breathers over on this "collector's" site are still arguing convoluted scenarios where this Luger might be possible. There is no reasoning with them. I am convinced that if I engraved an R2D2 on a Luger, I could get an internet expert to argue a time travel scenario.

07-23-2018, 09:25 AM	#14
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,915 Thanks: 1,989 Thanked 4,506 Times in 2,080 Posts	On Facebook it is being argued, unsure of any other site today. However, I have looked at a couple - I think never in person. From what I understand; **the writing doesn't make much sense ***Chrysanthemum wouldn't be on a pistol - not on T14 nor a T94 ***One argument is that it is in Mike Jones book (so early* that it likely isn't a fake is the thought process) *****So few of these - shouldn't there be scores that come up?

07-23-2018, 12:23 PM	#16
DonVoigt User Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: near Charlotte NC Posts: 4,677 Thanks: 1,440 Thanked 4,348 Times in 2,038 Posts	"As with the Totenkopf Luger(s), I seriously doubt that anyone in 1959 (or earlier) would have bothered faking a less than $50 Luger... IMO there must have been at least one with the markings. Maybe not an 'official' stamping, but realistic enough to convince the experts of that period. " Well, could have been an early Shattuck boost, nothing like taking a $50 pistol and making a $200 pistol out of it! JMHO. __________________ 03man(Don Voigt); Luger student and collector. Looking for DWM side plate: 69 ; Dreyse 1907 pistol K.S. Gendarmerie

07-23-2018, 01:06 PM	#18
wlyon Lifer 2X Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: May 2005 Location: Somewhere in Montana Posts: 2,619 Thanks: 3,144 Thanked 2,530 Times in 943 Posts	Anyone who says never on lugers has 1. not been around long or 2 Has not looked or studied lugers. Bill __________________ Bill Lyon

07-23-2018, 02:01 PM	#19
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,915 Thanks: 1,989 Thanked 4,506 Times in 2,080 Posts	I did not see a Japanese marked Luger on Shattucks personal collection document

07-23-2018, 03:48 PM	#20
hayhugh User Join Date: Oct 2013 Location: Florida/Penna Posts: 885 Thanks: 851 Thanked 508 Times in 271 Posts	It was not back from the shop yet...