A bit of Dutch history in 9mm

Vlim · 03-19-2006, 10:55 AM

Found this neat little box at a local collector's show:

The label reads
"Nederlandsche Politie
25 Pistoolpatronen
voor stenguns

Kaliber: P. 9mm Parab. (ogivaal)"

"Dutch Police
25 pistol cartridges
for sten guns

Calibre: P. 9mm Parab. (ogival)"

Spelling is old Dutch and headstamps suggest the ammo is slightly postwar, 1946 dated.

I'v heard rumors that the use of 9mm sten gun ammo in Dutch lugers wasn't quite a succes and that many pistols were in need of repair after attempts to fire this ammo were made.

Edward Tinker · 03-19-2006, 11:17 AM

Very nice Vlim, good find,

Ed

Pete Ebbink · 03-19-2006, 02:21 PM

Gerben,

Excellent !!! Dude !!!

The box contains 23 rounds...box label says 25...would 2 more fit in the box ?

Vlim · 03-19-2006, 03:01 PM

Pete,

Yep. 2 are missing, the box will hold 25.
2 shots fired every 60 years is about average for a Dutch policeman

Ron Smith · 03-19-2006, 05:57 PM

Gerben,

Now you need to find a Dutch Police Sten gun.

Vlim · 03-20-2006, 03:47 AM

Ron,

The thought alone could get me arrested here

I'm wondering who made this ammo. The cases have a 'Z' manufacturer's code and the same Z, part of a logo, appears on the side.

The logo is the Z with surrounded by the rifled bore of a barrel.

I've seen the Z both in connection with a Swedish producer and a Czech one.

Edward Tinker · 03-20-2006, 10:03 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by tacfoley
Don't ask how I know, but see my note above on what it did to various weapons.

tac

you devil gun blower uppers...

Vlim · 03-20-2006, 10:50 AM

Tac,

Thanks for the very interesting explanation.

I wasn't planning on sticking any of this old material in one of my lugers.
As I said, I had heard stories of Dutch abuse of the British 9mm rounds in the wrong weapons. Your explanation seems to fit the bill perfectly!

It also explains why there are so many Dutch lugers with a mismatched toggle/frame assembly. As there are 2 rounds missing, this box probably killed two pistols

Any additional info on the 'Z' maker's code?

This stuff must've been popular on the surplus market

Ron Smith · 03-20-2006, 12:42 PM

A friends nephew was in the 82nd Airbourne as a Scout/Forward observer in the first gulf war. As a special ops unit, they were permitted their choice of weapons. All but one in his unit chose the Sten. He said that he loved it because it never failed and was easy to carry.

I remember him saying that they procured British ammo because US issue 9mm didn't work as well.

Ron Smith · 03-20-2006, 02:04 PM

Tac,
He said that they were British Stens, possibly he had them confused with the Stirlings, but he said Stens.

Their sidearms were 1911-A1s. Most US Special Operations units went back to the 1911-A1 after the SEALs had the notorious problems with the Berettas.

Ron

Vlim · 03-20-2006, 02:19 PM

Hi,

The sten must have been an interesting concept, as even the folks at Mauser produced about 10,000 of them during WW2.

This is a picture of the Z-logo on the side of the box:

The headstamp:

Vlim · 03-20-2006, 03:12 PM

Tac,

Nice, thanks.

I'm not too unfamiliar with the CZ products. We use a couple of CZ 75's as training pistols for military pistol shooting. It's clear to see some P38 heritage in their design. Nice, reliable, sturdy pistols.

Snakeman · 04-05-2006, 02:30 AM

By the way, concerning the Mk2Z: the Swedish took a different approach in designing ammunition for the M45 Gustav sub machine gun- also based on the Patchett principle. Instead of changing the powder they changed the bullet itself: the mantel is a copper washed steel core that is lead filled.

As you can see the steel mantel is rather thick at the point where the bullet meets the rifleing. This higher resistance, caused by the lower malleability of the steel as opposed to lead gave a higher pressure and a greater reliability even in the cold of the Swedish winter. This round has the unfortunate (for the wearer) capacity of defeating body armor that would normally stop a regular 9mm round and, when used in firearms not designed for it (anything but the M45 and the like), early firearm demise is assured. IÃ?Â´ve seen many SIG 210s with cracked frames caused by the use of the M39B cartridge.

03-19-2006, 10:55 AM	#1
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,053 Thanks: 1,036 Thanked 3,988 Times in 1,205 Posts	A bit of Dutch history in 9mm Found this neat little box at a local collector's show: The label reads "Nederlandsche Politie 25 Pistoolpatronen voor stenguns Kaliber: P. 9mm Parab. (ogivaal)" "Dutch Police 25 pistol cartridges for sten guns Calibre: P. 9mm Parab. (ogival)" Spelling is old Dutch and headstamps suggest the ammo is slightly postwar, 1946 dated. I'v heard rumors that the use of 9mm sten gun ammo in Dutch lugers wasn't quite a succes and that many pistols were in need of repair after attempts to fire this ammo were made.

03-19-2006, 11:17 AM	#2
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,927 Thanks: 2,026 Thanked 4,524 Times in 2,090 Posts	Very nice Vlim, good find, Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

03-19-2006, 05:57 PM	#5
Ron Smith User Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Orygun Posts: 4,243 Thanks: 118 Thanked 245 Times in 150 Posts	Gerben, Now you need to find a Dutch Police Sten gun. __________________ I Still Need DWM side plate #49... if anyone runs across a nice one. What ~Rudyard Kipling~ said...

03-20-2006, 12:42 PM	#9
Ron Smith User Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Orygun Posts: 4,243 Thanks: 118 Thanked 245 Times in 150 Posts	A friends nephew was in the 82nd Airbourne as a Scout/Forward observer in the first gulf war. As a special ops unit, they were permitted their choice of weapons. All but one in his unit chose the Sten. He said that he loved it because it never failed and was easy to carry. I remember him saying that they procured British ammo because US issue 9mm didn't work as well. __________________ I Still Need DWM side plate #49... if anyone runs across a nice one. What ~Rudyard Kipling~ said...

03-20-2006, 02:04 PM	#10
Ron Smith User Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Orygun Posts: 4,243 Thanks: 118 Thanked 245 Times in 150 Posts	Tac, He said that they were British Stens, possibly he had them confused with the Stirlings, but he said Stens. Their sidearms were 1911-A1s. Most US Special Operations units went back to the 1911-A1 after the SEALs had the notorious problems with the Berettas. Ron __________________ I Still Need DWM side plate #49... if anyone runs across a nice one. What ~Rudyard Kipling~ said...

03-19-2006, 02:21 PM	#3
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Gerben, Excellent !!! Dude !!! The box contains 23 rounds...box label says 25...would 2 more fit in the box ?

03-19-2006, 03:01 PM	#4
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,053 Thanks: 1,036 Thanked 3,988 Times in 1,205 Posts	Pete, Yep. 2 are missing, the box will hold 25. 2 shots fired every 60 years is about average for a Dutch policeman

03-20-2006, 03:47 AM	#6
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,053 Thanks: 1,036 Thanked 3,988 Times in 1,205 Posts	Ron, The thought alone could get me arrested here I'm wondering who made this ammo. The cases have a 'Z' manufacturer's code and the same Z, part of a logo, appears on the side. The logo is the Z with surrounded by the rifled bore of a barrel. I've seen the Z both in connection with a Swedish producer and a Czech one.

03-20-2006, 10:50 AM	#8
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,053 Thanks: 1,036 Thanked 3,988 Times in 1,205 Posts	Tac, Thanks for the very interesting explanation. I wasn't planning on sticking any of this old material in one of my lugers. As I said, I had heard stories of Dutch abuse of the British 9mm rounds in the wrong weapons. Your explanation seems to fit the bill perfectly! It also explains why there are so many Dutch lugers with a mismatched toggle/frame assembly. As there are 2 rounds missing, this box probably killed two pistols Any additional info on the 'Z' maker's code? This stuff must've been popular on the surplus market

03-20-2006, 02:19 PM	#11
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,053 Thanks: 1,036 Thanked 3,988 Times in 1,205 Posts	Hi, The sten must have been an interesting concept, as even the folks at Mauser produced about 10,000 of them during WW2. This is a picture of the Z-logo on the side of the box: The headstamp:

03-20-2006, 03:12 PM	#12
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,053 Thanks: 1,036 Thanked 3,988 Times in 1,205 Posts	Tac, Nice, thanks. I'm not too unfamiliar with the CZ products. We use a couple of CZ 75's as training pistols for military pistol shooting. It's clear to see some P38 heritage in their design. Nice, reliable, sturdy pistols.

04-05-2006, 02:30 AM	#13
Snakeman User Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Sweden Posts: 31 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	By the way, concerning the Mk2Z: the Swedish took a different approach in designing ammunition for the M45 Gustav sub machine gun- also based on the Patchett principle. Instead of changing the powder they changed the bullet itself: the mantel is a copper washed steel core that is lead filled. As you can see the steel mantel is rather thick at the point where the bullet meets the rifleing. This higher resistance, caused by the lower malleability of the steel as opposed to lead gave a higher pressure and a greater reliability even in the cold of the Swedish winter. This round has the unfortunate (for the wearer) capacity of defeating body armor that would normally stop a regular 9mm round and, when used in firearms not designed for it (anything but the M45 and the like), early firearm demise is assured. IÃ?Â´ve seen many SIG 210s with cracked frames caused by the use of the M39B cartridge.