A bit of Dutch history in 9mm
 

Found this neat little box at a local collector's show:

The label reads
"Nederlandsche Politie
25 Pistoolpatronen
voor stenguns

Kaliber: P. 9mm Parab. (ogivaal)"

"Dutch Police
25 pistol cartridges
for sten guns

Calibre: P. 9mm Parab. (ogival)"

Spelling is old Dutch and headstamps suggest the ammo is slightly postwar, 1946 dated.

I'v heard rumors that the use of 9mm sten gun ammo in Dutch lugers wasn't quite a succes and that many pistols were in need of repair after attempts to fire this ammo were made.

http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfuploa...he_politie.jpg

Very nice Vlim, good find,


Ed

Gerben,

Excellent !!! Dude !!!

The box contains 23 rounds...box label says 25...would 2 more fit in the box ?

Pete,

Yep. 2 are missing, the box will hold 25.
2 shots fired every 60 years is about average for a Dutch policeman :)

Gerben,

Now you need to find a Dutch Police Sten gun. ;)

Ron,

The thought alone could get me arrested here :)

I'm wondering who made this ammo. The cases have a 'Z' manufacturer's code and the same Z, part of a logo, appears on the side.

The logo is the Z with surrounded by the rifled bore of a barrel.

I've seen the Z both in connection with a Swedish producer and a Czech one.

Re: Re: A bit of Dutch history in 9mm
 

:p :roflmao: :p you devil gun blower uppers...

Tac,

Thanks for the very interesting explanation.

I wasn't planning on sticking any of this old material in one of my lugers.
As I said, I had heard stories of Dutch abuse of the British 9mm rounds in the wrong weapons. Your explanation seems to fit the bill perfectly!

It also explains why there are so many Dutch lugers with a mismatched toggle/frame assembly. As there are 2 rounds missing, this box probably killed two pistols :)

Any additional info on the 'Z' maker's code?

This stuff must've been popular on the surplus market :D

A friends nephew was in the 82nd Airbourne as a Scout/Forward observer in the first gulf war. As a special ops unit, they were permitted their choice of weapons. All but one in his unit chose the Sten. He said that he loved it because it never failed and was easy to carry.

I remember him saying that they procured British ammo because US issue 9mm didn't work as well.

Tac,
He said that they were British Stens, possibly he had them confused with the Stirlings, but he said Stens.

Their sidearms were 1911-A1s. Most US Special Operations units went back to the 1911-A1 after the SEALs had the notorious problems with the Berettas.

Ron

Hi,

The sten must have been an interesting concept, as even the folks at Mauser produced about 10,000 of them during WW2.

This is a picture of the Z-logo on the side of the box:

http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/z_logo.jpg

The headstamp:

http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/z_headstamp.jpg

Tac,

Nice, thanks.

I'm not too unfamiliar with the CZ products. We use a couple of CZ 75's as training pistols for military pistol shooting. It's clear to see some P38 heritage in their design. Nice, reliable, sturdy pistols.

By the way, concerning the Mk2Z: the Swedish took a different approach in designing ammunition for the M45 Gustav sub machine gun- also based on the Patchett principle. Instead of changing the powder they changed the bullet itself: the mantel is a copper washed steel core that is lead filled.http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/pict0064m39b.jpg
As you can see the steel mantel is rather thick at the point where the bullet meets the rifleing. This higher resistance, caused by the lower malleability of the steel as opposed to lead gave a higher pressure and a greater reliability even in the cold of the Swedish winter. This round has the unfortunate (for the wearer) capacity of defeating body armor that would normally stop a regular 9mm round and, when used in firearms not designed for it (anything but the M45 and the like), early firearm demise is assured. I�´ve seen many SIG 210s with cracked frames caused by the use of the M39B cartridge.