Question on bakelite grips
 

Hey guys this is my byf41 I have and it was said to be a Russian captured based on the grips. It is an early q block byf41 but has all matching parts except for unstamped toggle pin and none are forced matched, bluing is original and there is not capture mark or x on the slide or signs of rework as far as I can tell.
So I don't think it was a Russian capture but somehow it got these vertical bakelite grips on it and I want ro k ow more about the.

For those wondering about bluing I posted some scary bright light pics here to show oxidation

Also oddly enough the magazine has acceptance stamps on the mag but the base is an original style concave base but has no markings at all or stamps and has not been filed it seems. Any knowledge on non stamped mags?

While it may be conjecture as to your Luger being a Russian capture or not, there is no denying that the grips are Russian replacements.

I've been following your other thread - commented once - and you said the dealer would not entertain a refund or price reduction even though you've done a lot of business with him. "All matching" in the Luger world means every part with the possible exception of the magazine when it's stated that it isn't. IOW, all matching includes the grips and the axel pin.

As such, I'd talk to the dealer, explain that and either he makes me happy or I never do business with him again. When he said "all matching", he was not honest.

Please name the dealer.

Jack

Perhaps I am misreading the post but it seems to me that this was sold to the buyer as a Russian capture gun, therefore the Russian grips. They buyer stated above "it was said to be a Russian captured based on the grips." The question is, how did the seller represent this gun?

KFS

Karl, here is the OP's original post in "New Collectors": https://forum.lugerforum.com/showthread.php?t=41947

In there he doesn't indicate that the pistol was sold to him as a Russian capture but the subsequent discussion includes the information that the grips are Russian replacements. IMO, the OP is commenting on that and not that the Luger was sold to him as such.

The OP can clear up the issue.

So the dealer said the gun did not have import marks or rebuking or the Russian x on the slide and showed me another Russian capture he had as comparison but did say he believed the gun was Russian captured due to the bakelite grips.
That being said when he fills out his display cards he either puts all matching or all matching except for grips as he is one of those believers that grips get swapped its the metal parts that matter and it doesn't seem he changes his prices accordingly. Like I got a red 9 from him all matching except for grips and holster rig.
When he sold me the gun it was under the assumption it was all matching except for Russian replacement grips and that it was a Russian capture.
I'm finding out now from alot of people that the toggle pin not being stamped is a big issue, yet he swears by it not being one.
And im also having some people tell me they think the side plate was a forced match but I'm unsure about that.
Either way the price I paid as my first luger was considerably more than I should have paid at around 1800 after tax.

See the buisness me and this dealer have had before was based on my collection of Revolvers and other more easily priced guns. For those guns like a shiny new in the box tuned model 27 I got a good deal for 1000, also having 6 speedloaders, a carry box and 3 boxes of black talon ammo. But when it comes to war guns like lugers and european guns his prices vary from ok to way over priced and I thi k for luger and c96 collecting in the future I'm gonna find a new place to shop

It's also been a few months since I got the gun and as my clecting and knowledge has increased I'm questioning some things. As a first luger it shoots great over 100 shots and no jams at all but I think im gonna find people in the society to start buying from instead.

When it comes down to it who knows when or why those grips were put on your Luger. If the grips are the only reason the guy you bought it from is saying it's a Russian capture that is not enough of a reason IMO. Those grips could have been put on decades ago by some previous owner for whatever reason. I don't think your dealer was being dishonest with you he might think he knows more than he does. In the future buy what you know. your learning now and that will protect you in future purchases. You got a nice luger and you can change out the grips for the right ones if it's not an actual Russian capture. Also I wouldn't lose sleep over the toggle pin. If the frame didn't match the slide or toggle links were unnumbered or mismatched then that would be a big deal but an unmarked toggle pin, something that could have been an armorer's replacement, is not. Good Luck and have fun with that Luger!
Jim

The 6's are different on the sideplate than the receiver, takedown lever and frame. They should be the same. I believe the sideplate was force matched.

It's hard to judge finish from flash photographs, but it has the appearance of being dip refinished to me, and the acceptance stamps do not look correct on the left of the receiver.

The trigger side plate looks shaved and force matched. Checking the number inside can confirm this.

This is probably not a matching Luger and would probably not be considered collectible. With the manipulated parts, it would be considered a shooter if it cycles properly.