Need Witnesses please
 

And I'm pissed off and alittle paranoid.And posting this purposely for the benefit of anyone who may be interested. Mainly our Federal friends at BATF.

I received this from a dealer in Hawaii today. I bought it through GunBroker. A stripped 1906 Luger frame. With a purposely altered serial #. The 4th number has been peened out very carefully and restamped with a 7.

I am posting this on a public forum, so that there are no repercussions. I received it today by registered mail. And will be returning it to the seller tomorrow. This is an illegal alteration, and I will not have it in my house longer than it takes to get rid of it.

I feel like I've been set-up. Or else this guy is'nt very bright.

Very sincerely, Ron Smith
http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfuploa...1906_copy1.jpg
http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfuploa...er_2_copy1.jpg

Ed, I'm not saying it is stolen. I'm not making any accusations at all. I'm just not keeping it. If the seller refuses to refund me. I will simply send the copy of his FFL and the frame to the nearest BATF office. I'll be out a few bucks, but so will he.
Ron

hey, i just deleted my posting...

but was trying to be funny, :D

ed

Ed, I know you were. No offense intended, or taken. I'm just pretty ticked. I was really looking forward to using this frame to build a nice shooter.
Ron

yes, and to be surprised is very irritating... Much better if you knew.

You could ask for guidance from the local batf, say you saw it on gunbroker and see what they say.

I don't think there is a way to get it reregistered like a VIN on a car?

Ed

Ron,

Hard to tell from the picture, but was this an obviously recent alteration? Considering we are dealing with a 100 year old gun that has been through a lot of history, the alteration may have occurred well prior to the laws forbidding alteration of the serial number. Anyone know if this calls into question possession of gun with an altered serial number since it may have occurred a VERY long time ago.

Malcolm Pipes

Malcolm, Since there is no way of verifying when it was altered. It is still illegal to own. In short it is a violation of federal law.

Ron

Ron, Sorry to hear about your most recent find....It's a 5 didget too!Talk about a forced match! Why would some idiot do that? Surely not to hide a serial #. People should know that forensically it is possible for metalurgists to bring up a serial # even though it has been ground off. Jerry Burney

Ron It was peened out to prevent metalurgists from bring up the number. By peening out the number it changes the structure of the metal allowing the number to be unrecovered.This may be why it was done this way.I too would send it back as quick as possible Best Richie

AFTER you have your money back Ron, I would send the copy of the dealer's license and the photos you posted to your local ATF office... If the sender was a licensed dealer, HE SHOULD HAVE KNOWN BETTER... He was just pawning his problem off on you.

A final alternative, if the guy doesn't refund your money is to seek ATF permission have the gun legitimately "repaired" by TIG welding and then have it re-serialized by the ATF. It would still make a good shooter if they allow you to do that. It sure would be better than a several hundred dollar hole in your checking account.

John, I am considering sending it to ATF anyway. I'm not exactly sure what to do at this point. I'm not going to return it until I get confirmation from the seller, that I will get my money back. E-mailed him last night. No response yet.
Thanks, Ron

Ron,
Don't send it back yet. I have called a buddy of mine who is with BATF,and I think he may want to talk to you.

Jim

Enlargement and photo enhancement of the serial number alteration... It may be my imagination, but I think I see either a "3" or a "5" under that "7" overstamp...

http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfuploa...alteration.jpg

Jim, I would be happy to talk to him. I would really like to find out if there is anyway that I could legally keep it. Send me a PM if he needs any information. I truly do appreciate your help.

John, I looked at it under the strongest magnification I could. It's so heavily peened, it's hard to tell.

Thanks Guys, Ron

Ron,

If a return and refund does not work out, you might have some recourse with the GunBroker folks...maybe they could pressure the seller to do the right thing...or threaten him with banishment from that auction...then he would have to go and start-up his own auction web site... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

Yes, and he would insist that you never ask the reserve price....
Tom A

Pete, That may be an option. did'nt think of that. I'm waiting for an ATF agent to contact me. They have the whole story. So I guess I'll wait and see. I am really hoping that I can work out a way to keep the frame. I think I've located some of the parts I'll need for it.
The seller actually came across as being up front, honest,and friendly. I asked him if the frame had been sanded, buffed, or altered in any way. He said absolutely not. I guess the serial number just slipped his mind. "OH! Did'nt I mention that it's illegal as hell?" Oops!!

Ron

Ron, Illegal as Hell? Hell is not illegal. It's like Marriage , a tax audit or a root canal. An unpleasant place to be but not illegal.It's actually easy to get into Hell, ten ways. God wrote them on a stone tablet.... The Government won't let you see these in any public building. They allow them on the streets and the internet though...Jerry Burney

If I remember correctly, fire arms made prior to the cut off date of 1934 or there abouts are not required to have any serial number at all. How ever this is a ticklish situation and you want to be d**n sure of where you stand.

I had a similar problem years ago with a Mk VI Webley. The British military had sold a batch off to the Irish Constablery. For reasons known only to the bureaucratic mind they renumbered them by placing a strike out line through the original serial number and adding the new one below it. When the Irish Constabalery sold them off they were imported into the US under the new number.

At the time I lived in Michigan where handguns are registered. The police did quite a double take over the serial number and I had to get a letter from the importer to explain it.

You cannot expect the local police to be up on the fine points of the law on this sort of thing. If it proves to be legal as is, I'd carry the paper work to prove it along with it.

unspellable,
you may be correct that firearms after a 1934 are not required to have a ser number, however altering a ser number on just about anything (including firearms), is illegal in every state that I know of, not to mention Federal Law.

Clearly the from the photos one can see the ser number has been altered.

But your right, I would keep any paper work that is generated as a result of this if things turn out favorable.

Jim

The thing I find odd, is why just one number? if I was trying to make it unreadable (not unspellable), then I'd whack them all? Of course, my background mind tells me that you just want a doubt to be in the buyers mind and not the worry of all of them whacked out...

Ed

Talked to a local dealer friend this weekend. He has been in the gun business for nearly 50 yrs. He said he has had the same situations come up. He said he has never had a response from the ATF re; altered serial number. Unless they have a recent record of a theft. His bet is that they won't do anything at all. His son is a local Police Detective, and pretty much agreed with him. Considering the age, and that it's not a complete firearm.

Sure hope he's right. Ron

This is the response I received from a BATF agent this morning. RE: 1906 Luger Frame Altered Ser#.

"I have forwarded the info to Honolulu ATF regulatory. I think the best thing is
to send back the frame and get your money back. As far as a criminal case
dealing with violations of the federal firearms laws it would be a hard case to
make. The law deals with altered or obliterated serial numbers and he could
always claim that the re-stamped was done back in WW II. It is definetly a fraud
since you expected a correctly serialized Luger. My advice would be to get your
money back . We will do an inspection of his books and check what he put in his
A&D book for your Luger frame. We will handle this through our regulatory branch
and of course if anything turns up criminal we will investigate."

My response to him:


"I e-mailed him ,telling him 2 weeks ago that I decided to keep it,
because I assumed that BATF would want it as possible evidence. Now I think I'm
stuck with it. If there is no case. And I am safe from any repercussions. I
would just as soon keep it. I purchased it with the intent of using it to
complete a 1906 Luger.
I did not alert him to the fact that BATF had been notified. So that he
would not adjust his records. If I would have gotten a response sooner, I would
have returned it. Now I'm in the position of becoming the victim in this matter.
I tried to do what I thought was right. Not only to protect myself, but because
I wanted to abide by the law.
If it is determined that there is or is not a definite violation. Please
have your agent let me know, and I will , if required by law, surrender the
frame to BATF. If not, I would like to keep it. I am a Federal Employee,close to
retirement. And do not want to jepardize my job, nor my right to retain my
C&R.Thanks for the response and advice".

Looks Like I'm between a rock and a hard place!

Ron

Ron,

Very interesting response from ATF. It does look like you are between a rock and a hard place. At the very least if you are allowed to keep the frame I would keep documentation about the altered serial number. Having a paper trail documenting the altered serial number and ATF response will at least keep you out of trouble when you someday decide to sell the Luger. I hope this all works out in your best interest. Will you be attending the upcoming Reno Show??
Scott

Ron, I think that since you have email evidence that you have tried to do the right thing, that you have no worries about criminal consequences... Just keep all the original documentation, and of course, the emails exchanged with the ATF.

BTW, for those interested, we do have at LEAST one ATF agent as a member, but I am not at liberty to divulge who that is... Certainly, there are some agents who like Lugers too! :) (What's not to like :D )

Scott,
I wanted to go to the Reno show, but my wife is going in for surgery soon, and I won't be going. It's nothing serious, however I don't think she would appreciate it. :) I am keeping anything to do with this mess.

John,
I was thinking along those lines myself. I have all documentation stored and I'm going to print it out in hardcopy. If they don't require me to turn it in. I'm going to remove the number and re-stamp it, with the same number. It won't be original, but it will look alot better. It's going to be on a parts gun .30 Luger shooter anyway.

Hey Guys, Thanks for the advice and opinions. It makes me feel better.
Ron

RON...NO NO NO... do not alter the number that is already there... That act is a federal felony EVEN if you are restamping the same number... unless you have documented permission.

You MUST get ATF's permission to do that IN WRITING or have them do it for you... Changing that number without permission will negate all the documentation you have accumulated so far that will keep you in the clear from criminal activity...

John, No, I am aware of the regulation. I was'nt going to do it without aquiring the proper documentation from ATF. I have a friend who is a gunsmith. He has dealt with similar situations. He restored a Colt 1911 which had the ser# serverly pitted and had to be re-stamped. He is going to assist me in the process.
Did'nt mean to cause any panic. And thanks for the well intentioned heads up.

Ron

Whew! Thanks Ron... I'd hate to see you stumble into trouble...

Ron,
Actually I think your in a good position right now, you have the frame (you wanted it anyway) and documentation for BATF that says a criminal case wouldnâ??t fly because it could have been done 70-80 years ago.

Apply to the local BATF office to have the frame correctly numbered and everybody is happy.

Jim

Jim, Yeah, I was thinking it's not going anyplace. Just from the way the agent worded it. As in "my advice would be". Nothing firm or authoritative. We'll see what transpires.

Thanks for your help Jim, Ron

FLASH!!! Up date. Heard from the ATF again. "You need to send it back to the dealer, for a refund".
So I contacted the guy. He has agreed to refund my money. It will be going away tomorrow.

I would like to thank all who advised, supported
and coached me in this "Cluster *&%#*".

Thanks Guys! Ron

This has always bothered me. There should be "in black and white" how to re-mark a gun. Accidents happen, someone on purpose but not trying to be criminal before you obtained a piece....

You can get automobiles re-stamped and re-registered, as I have done this, why couldn't you get guns? I am guessing because autos are reasonably national and guns aren't???

Ed

My God Ed!! What are you thinking? Just let anyone change a ser#? You know what would happen then!? There would be...uh..uh...er, serial numbers changed! That's what!! And probably the end of life as we know it.

Ron

Thanks for the update Ron... This has been a valuable lesson for all of us... (and I am sure an expensive one for you...) I hope the "dealer" (if the ATF is going to allow him to use that title any longer) also refunds your shipping.

Ed, its because autos don't kill people.

John, I am getting the shipping reimbersed also. Thanks, Ron

Ron,
send me a pm, about which agent re-contacted you
I would like to get the rest of the story
Jim

Jim, PM sent. Ron