Digfind acquired: 1920 rework of a WW1 artillery
 

Hi,

Acquired this one at the Ciney, Belgium show. Sadly no details on where or how it was discovered. It has some interesting details though. The chamber shows signs of a 1920 property mark, as well as a 1917 or 1918 chamber date. Also, the pistol has a standard 9mm barrel but shows the small cut-out for the artillery version. Although one of the images appears to show an Erfurt logo, the DWM logo is pretty obvious on it.

Traces of a division marking are visible on the gripstrap. Sadly too badly corroded to make any sense. The serial number appears to be a short one (3 digit) with the last 2 digits being '11'.

The pistol appears to have malfunctioned. As the pictures show the toggle is partially retracted to the rear and the ejector is broken. There is a spent case (I checked :) ) in the chamber. I'm working on loosening the receiver and toggle assembly to see if I can extract the case.

This might well be a steel case that jammed.

Also note the hole in the takedown lever. This has been observed on other dug up lugers. Maybe it's just a rust effect.

http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/rusty_trigger.jpg

http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfuploa...sty_detail.jpg

http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/rusty_top.jpg

http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfuploa...y_right_01.jpg

http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/rusty_left_01.jpg

http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/rusty_grip.jpg

Great item for discussion Vlim around a office or den at home,

Ed

Hi Ed,

It certainly is. Price was good and it makes a nice paperweight.

Or maybe I'll send it to Thor for some minor retouching work :D

GvV. I'm sure Thor would love that one as a before photo. There's a great article in the 4th Edition of the Gun Collector's Digest entitled "1300 grams of rust" showing how Gale Morgan restored a 20 shot broom, almost this bad. If he did your luger, it would rival a like new carbine in price. Probably your best bet to get it apart, is to soak it in WD40 for a couple of years. TH

you can definitly tell they were shooting corrosive ammo out of it.
LOL

Russ

Hello,

Very interesting piece to be sure.

How were you able to determine there was a spent case remaining inside? Were you able to see down the barrel with some device?

I am interested on how you determined that it was a casing, not the breech face when you examined it.

Quite an unusual find.
Thank you for sharing it.
Regards,
Fritz.

Hi Fritzer, good observation.

Well, basically two tests were used. Test one was shoving a cleaning rod down the barrel and check for a bullet sticking out. This test confirmed that there was no loaded round in the chamber, but this was not enough to determine whether an empty case was still present.

Test two involved loosening the broken front part of the ejector (it had snapped down the middle). I managed to loosen the ejector and move the front portion of the ejector backwards and this exposed the rim of the cartridge that was stuck in the chamber.

I also managed to restore the safety lever to a somewhat working order. Funnily enough, it was stuck into the 'safe' position.

Hi gerben Any ideas about the holes through the barrel they almost looked sort of drilled or punched there ?

Hi,

Well, the rust appears to be the main culprit, probably water combined with corrosive powder residue.

Someone did some cleaning on the luger earlier and I guess it was pretty much a solid brick of rust when it was originally recovered. There are traces of crude removal of the magazine as well, causing the obvious damage to the grip and mainspring area.

As for legal ownership issues over here: I'd have to do some additional checking, but I guess it's even obvious to the untrained police officer that this is no longer a functional side arm. Worst case scenario is that I'll have to split it in half (through the center).

GvV, I think that you meant to say extractor rather than ejector. Actually splitting this one down the middle, would probably add to its value with the round in the chamber. TH

Tom,

Thanks for the observation. The thing sticking out on top is broken. That flat thingie with the triagle on it's side is still in one piece :D

I'm actually working on opening the toggle and I'm confident I can get it fully opened within a couple of days. Some further soaking is needed :)

Well,

I managed to free up the toggle and almost completely dismantle the pistol.

The firing pin is completely stuck to the front breach block and it appears to be completely fractured. The rest of the pistol was in an amazing condition. All small parts, with the exception of the sear spring, were all there. Even the little trigger spring was still present. I managed to remove the remains of the stuck cartridge case but there was too much deterioration, so no positive ID on the maker.

The primer looks a bit strange to me and it doesn't appear to have been fired. Makes you wonder where the bullet went... Note that the primer center sticks out.

The receiver was somewhat warped, making me believe that this pistol was subjected to a burst of heat before it went underground. The heat area seems to have been greatest on the lefthand rear side.

These are some close-ups of the case. Sorry for the fuzziness, but my camera lacks a decent macrolense.

http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/case_01.jpg

http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/case_02.jpg

http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/case_03.jpg

http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/case_04.jpg

Gerben, The pistol was in a fire. The round cooked off. The primer detonated and flowed back into the firing pin hole. That's probably why the barrel pitted the way it did. Hot spots, such as embers were touching the metal where the big pits are and softened the steel, so that it corroded faster in the soft areas. It may have been in a bombed and burning vehicle.

Ron

Gerben, Ron,

I was wondering about the fire possibility, when you said the thumb safety was rusted in the "safe" position, and an empty casing was in the chamber. The missing frame parts in the magazine area also had me thinking - any rounds in the mag would have cooked off too.

Your earlier post about " There are traces of crude removal of the magazine as well, causing the obvious damage to the grip and mainspring area." gave me the impression that the magazine had survived - so I gave up on that weak theory.

I was wondering about the position of the cannon assembly you mentioned. If the pistol had the thumb safety on, and the round in the chamber were ignited - Would any binding or malfunction of the toggle occur????

I examined my 1917 and thought about it - but I don't know enough about the mechanics of the toggle/cannon movement. What do you think?

Regards,
Fritz.

Hi Ron, Fritzer,

Ron: Your theory sure sound plausible.
Fritzer: Some parts of the frame were obivously torn away, but with hindsight it's pretty probable that the magazine/grip area virtually exploded as the result of a fire. This also explains the distortion of the receiver and the missing sear spring.

If a luger would fire with the safety on, I'd expect the firing pin and the safety bar to get damaged and the receiver locking up. The toggle assembly itself is pretty sturdy and would survive.

I think a large amount of heat combined with the discharge of cooked ammo would pretty much explain what happened to this pistol.

Dear Sir,

I am interested in your technique for freeing up the rusted parts of this Luger. I also have a dug Artillery Luger that I have managed to remove all the rust using Alkaline electrochemical process that does not harm the remaining iron. I believe that the pieces should remove, but would like your opinion and experience. Thank you.

ADMIN: I lightened the picture a bit, ebt

Here is a closer picture. It came from Rancourt trenches in the St Pierre Vaast Woods, lost about March 1917. It had a trommel magazine in it which is being sent from France right now. It seems to be a variant type II. wdjensen123@hotmail.com

Bill, many times it is better to start your own thread, then you can receive direct answers etc., and it just makes it easier.

Using keroseen (sp) can help loosen up stuck parts. But personally, I am unsure if you'll ever get much action from this artillery. And I would worry that pieces might break if forced?

Ed

I wonder how Liquid Wrench�® would do on something like this?

--Dwight

Hi there,

I have it soaking in Liquid Wrench right now for a few days. I'll let you know if any parts free up. Thanks.

Sincerely,
Bill Jensen

Bill, This looks like a job for a 20 LB sledge hanner. TH

Hi there,

I have a 5 pound sledge, but will try not to mar the "finish" by using hardwood to pound with.

I was going to get creative with thermal expansions and liquid nitrogen or dry ice with mild leating, but I can't find a source of the cold stuff. Heating and regular ice did not help.

I have managed to free up some minor components. Its a fun project though, even if I can't get any parts to move. I love a challenge!

Sincerely,
Bill Jensen

Hi,

The techniques used are quite simple and mostly consist of:

-Patience
-A large hammer (really)
-Lots and lost of WD40 and gun oil.
-A fine bladed knife that was used to cut out the rust from between tightfitting parts.

It's like a big puzzle, trying to free up parts, getting one part to move slightly in order to free up another.

The toggle was freed up by placing a large bolt all the way through the barrel until it touched the front of the breech (where the firing pin normally sticks out). You may want to drill a hole in the bolt (or metal pin) so it clears the firing pin tip.

Place the pistol firmly in a benchrest (wood blocks/cloth for protection) and gently free up the toggle by tapping the toggle backwards. Every time you manage to break a part free a little bit, coat whole bugger in oil and cut the muck out using the small blade (like a standard hobby knife). Once in a while, push back the toggle assembly to free up the action, then repeat.

Pry away as much debris from all nooks and crannies as you can.

My pistol had been in a fire and the receiver had deformed, making the task somewhat more difficult. Getting the takedown lever out was the most difficult part as I first had to get the toggle back far enough for the lever to rotate. Try tapping along the bottom of the knobs, combined with tapping against the rod in the barrel to free up the action. I got the knobs slightly freed up by inserting a flat blade screwdriver between the frame and the knobs, using the screwdriver as a lever.

All in all it was a fun project and it cost me quite some hours to get it separated, hindered by the (spent) case that was still in the chamber. The trigger guard sadly came off, but it was hanging by a few threads already. Locktited it in place for display purposes.

These are the parts I eventually managed to separate:
Please note that the full safety catch was also freed and is functional. The ejector spring is in a surprisingly good condition, as is the sear bar. The firing pin somewhat blew up in this pistol, so nothing but some debris was left. Most of the pin is still stuck inside the front toggle. The trigger is still functional and even the trigger spring could be identified.

http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfuploa...rts01small.jpg

http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfuploa...rts02small.jpg

Dear Mr. Vlimmeren

Thank you for letting me know how you managed to free up the rusted parts. It gives me encouragement that the parts in my rusty Artillery might be able to be freed up. It has been soaking in Liquid Wrench penetrant and rust softener.

Did you notice that the rails were rusted, where they fitted closely together? Did you tap on these rails to loosen or break the rust? How hard did you have to hit the threaded rod? How long did it take to first get the toggle to move? When you mean knock the knobs backward, do you mean upwards?

I love your pictures, and congratulate you on getting it apart, it represents a lot of work ! I will keep you posted on any progress I have this weekend on freeing any parts. Apparently mine is more rusty, but does not exhibit the deep pitting that your does. It was buried in alkaline chalk for 80+ years, and the wooden grips survived. I will clean up the trommel that was found with this gun, once it arrives from France.

Sincerely,
Bill Jensen
California.

Hi Bill,

actually, the moving parts including the rail were in a pretty good condition. Cutting through the rust with a small blade helped to get the mechanism going as the only thing blocking the mechanism is the expanding rust and usually it's not much rust.

You can pry the knobs upwards and rearwards at the same time, working the toggle loose bit by bit. I also did a lot of mallet tapping on all parts of the pistol, just to break the parts free. What also worked well, was inserting a small blade screwdriver between the ears and the toggle, slightly moving them apart. This again broke the rust and it gave space for the blade of a cutting knife, so I could peen out even more rust. It also provided extra space for oil to soak in even deeper.

The toggle moved rearwards after about a week of work. The receiver had to be forced out because of the fire damage, which warped the receiver so it had difficulty clearing the 'ears'. Remember, I first had to move the receiver rearwards in order to free up the takedown switch and the side plate (which came off pretty easily). Then I had to force the receiver forward again for further dismantling.

You'll probably loose the rear end of the firing pin when you start freeing the toggle. It helps to get the sear bar out before you start releasing the toggle any further. But of course, this means the side plate must be removed first.....Your artillery already has it's takedown lever and sideplate missing, so that'll make things slightly easier.

A difficult part is the hook that connects the toggle to the main spring. This hook needed quite a bit of encouraging to get going again, but is fully functional now.

I must say that my respect for these weapons as well as the trust in them has grown after this experiment.

Here are some bigger Before pictures:

http://home.earthlink.net/~debbymayb...gerBigLeft.jpg

http://home.earthlink.net/~debbymayb...erBigRight.jpg

I have soaked the Luger for 2 days in Liquid Wrench. Last night I was able to free up the toggle and middle link, but the middle link broke at the joint where it joins the forward bolt link. I tried to get the bolt to break free but could not. I will try some more today. The grip area is falling apart from the impacts since there was little remaining metal after the rust was removed.

I have been working an hour and managed to move the bolt back 1/2" but it is now stuck there. The extractor is freed up, the spring still works to snap it back and I see the letters "ELADEN" on it. Magazine catch is free. Grips are taking a beating since they are so weak. Recoil lever free too. Soaking again in Liquid Wrench.

After 5 hours of soaking, the bolt slides free. Now I can begin to see inside it. I am having great difficulty freeing the receiver from the frame. Any suggestions? I can't break the rust seal.

Sincerely,
Bill Jensen

Hi Bill,

Try to work on the receiver from behind. You may get a small screwdriver or wedge between the frame and the bottom part of the receiver, just beside the 'ears'. Take care not to damage the center part of the rear end of the frame. That's a fragile bit.

Also, take time to relax. You can really get carried away while working on something that's stuck. Just put it down for a few minutes, relax and then try again. I speak from experience :)

The bolt may be stuck behind the sear bar. You may want to try and free up the sear bar so the bolt can slide out. Also, is the ejector spring still in place? Or maybe hold-open spring is stuck in the upper (blocking) position.

Hi gerben great job getting that apart. did not think it was possible.

Hi Gerben, Now you can oil it up and take it out and shoot it. :D

Ron

Ron,

Excellent idea! The holes in the barrel should work as some sort of compensator, making targeting without a front sight really easy... :D

Dear Mr. Vlimmeren,

After about 4 hours of working, I have freed up the receiver from the frame, bolt, toggles, and many more parts. Hitting it with the wedge did the trick. plus a massive strike on the tip of the barrel to crack the rust, and allow the liquid wrench to soak in. The parts slide freely now.

The next is the firing pin, but it is very corroded, and may not ever come free.

Sincerely,
Bill Jensen

Bill,

Excellent work! I agree that getting the firing pin out will be somewhat of a challenge, but if the tip is still distinguishable, as well as the side of the pin you have a good chance.

Try to get a detailed photograph of the disassembled pistol when you're ready!

I am pleased with my progress, and it is a lot of fun bringing the rusty luger back from its earthbound grave.

Here is a picture of some of the parts so far. The firing pin tip is intact, and so is the protrusion off the side. It is in Naval Jelly right now to remove the heavy rust that is on it. I'll attempt to free it up tonight.

Couldn't have gotten this far without all the great help I have gotten from you all.

Sincerely,
Bill Jensen

In the process of restoring the rusty Luger and the trommel found with it. Here's a picture.

Love the trommel!

It still amazes me to see everything looking like this after 80+ years under ground....

Hi there,

The trommel is rusted so that the external markings are gone. I was able to get the trommel open and look inside. Apparently there was no serial number stamped on the outside of the plate, because there is no impression of such stamps visible from the inside. I have seen the interior of 2 trommels, and they have impressions of the outside number stampings. This is unusual to not have numbers on both sides of the Trommel.

Apparently the trommel was all fired, but left in the wound and locked position. The mainspring snapped after all these years of added tension. I am very happy with it. It is a Type II, but an early version without the 2 reinforcing rings, and a 1" washer instead. Have not seen one like it before.

Sincerely,
Bill Jensen

Hi Bill,

That's what I like about dig finds. They are like time capsules and can sometimes settle old disputes (or generate fresh ones :) ).