clapboard stock
 

Howdy everyone. Got refered your way from the Battlerifles forum for this question. I have a 1921 luger that I would like to buy the stock for. What are the general requirements to keep me out of the hotseat with the law. It is a standard 3 inch barrel. 92XX V, for the serial.
I have some photo's on my web page.
http://mywebpages.comcast.net/vf1000...photo_page.htm
I'm looking for the phone # of the BATF to ask them the same question. Thanks for any help you folks can give.

Hate to burst your bubble, but there is no stock which can be legally attached to your Luger. Only certain stocks can be attached to LP-08s (Artillery models), Navy models, and 1900-1902-1906 American Eagle models with particular grips.

http://www.lugerforum.com/BATF.html
http://www.lugerforum.com/BATF2.html

are in the information portion of this Lugerforum. They are the pertinent parts of the BATF regulations concerning Lugers and shoulder stocks.

--Dwight

Unless your model was originally issued with a stock, you are SOL! (SO out of Luck) An Artillery Luger must have only an Artillery STock, a Navy stocked Luger must only have a Navy Stock, etc. The short Finnish Army version M23??? I think was issued with a stock but there are none made in 1921 that I am aware of. Even changing the barrel to make it look like an Artillery, then buying an Artillery stock is not legal as far as I know, to attached to the Luger.

vf1000ride ,
Print out these Rulings and READ OVER and OVER!!
I cannot be too emphatic about this.
Many years in a Federal Lockup is the Penalty for an Error on your Part, Or If you are Very Lucky You may get by on being Bankrupted by Your Defense Lawyers Fees!
I own a 1906 AE Luger that appears on the "Exempted List", and I have constructed a close resemblance to the "Ideal Shoulder Stock / Holster that meets every requirement of the "Rules", But I still am going to Write for a letter of clarification for my Holster Stock.
I feel that I may need this if a "County Mountie" decides that he has me on a "Felony Collar" of a "Short Barreled Rifle Possession" charge.
Better to be Safe Than All Locked Up!!
ViggoG

ViggoG is referring to his 1906 AE Luger, one of the exempted ones with a correct combination.

And unless you have a gun that is "exempted", then don't buy a stock for your Luger.

It could just cause problems. :(

I have an artillery Luger and just because I have an arty, and I went to a range with a 4 inch Luger, I could be in deep trouble if my arty wasn't with me, or if I used the stock on my 4 inch <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" />

Just not worth it.

Anyway, sorry about all the negativity, so just be careful out there and Welcome!

Yep well, this is why we ask these questions. I read the BATF web site for about 2 hours last night and only managed to give myself a migrane. Legal speak is above me. Thanks guys for the quick reply's. My poor little luger doesn't seem to be on any specialty list. What a shame. I think it would be neet to shoot it with the stock. Well now I am just gonna have to find myself an artilery model so I can have one legaly. Thanks again.

Let me add one fact about legality... The above advice is all true... but there is an exception.

In order to legally attach a stock to a Luger pistol that is not on the ATF C&R exemption list, under the National Firearms Act of 1934, you must apply to create a "short barreled rifle" or SBR. A SBR is defined as a shoulder fired firearm with a barrel less than 16 (sixteen) inches.

The resulting SBR would from that time on be considered a registered Class III type weapon under the NFA. You must pay a $200 tax when you make your application to create the SBR and it must be approved BEFORE you actually attach the stock.

Personally, I would not even have in my possession a Luger with a barrel less than 16 inches and a stock capable of attaching to this Luger until such time as you have received approval to create the SBR. To do so might be considered "constructive intent" to create an unregistered SBR by an overzealous ATF agent... since all you would have to do is slip them together and tighten the latch to actually create the SBR.

Err on the side of caution in this area... to make a mistake could mean federal jail time and a very large fine.

If you subsequently sell the combination to someone else, they would also have to pay a transfer tax, but I am not sure if that would be $5.00 or $200.00...

If you have any other questions I would be glad to try and answer them

I read into the BATF website some more today. And with your help either it is begining to make sence or my head is just gonna pop. If the gun is on the exempt list you can put the stock onto it. If not then you have to go about it with the $200 tax and the SBR thing. If you get it registered as a SBR do you then always have to use the gun with the stock? Still seems easier to get a pistol that is on the exempt list. There are just so many guns that I want, so little money left after buying the ammo for the ones I have. Yep well, putting in the overtime for a while. Thanks for all your help.

Still seems easier to get a pistol that is on the exempt list.

Yup.

Work some overtime for me too, I'll send you my list :D

Ed

I was once also hooked on shooting a stocked pistol, but wisely decided to stay away from shoulder fired Lugers (too expensive and too scarce). I concentrated on broomhandles and Inglis HPs which are readily available with repro stocks and quite affordable. Stick to those and you will be a happy camper.

Aaron, unfortunately, repro stocks are NOT exempt on the Inglis HP as they must be original. Although it is often mentioned that repros are acceptable on the C-96, the BATFE C&R web-site states that they must be original as well. I have yet to see a ruling from NFA Branch giving them an exemption.

The other problem with *making* a SBR, entails the approval of a Form #1 & engraving the receiver in a conspicuous manner at a certain depth & height with the name of the *maker* & their city & state.

John... the *making tax* is $200 for a SBR.

The transfer of a SBR from class 3 dealer to class 3 dealer is tax exempt. A SBR transfer tax to an individual or 03 C&R FFL is $200... $5 for an AOW.

I had thought about the broomhandle as an alternative. I just don't think that the astetics of that gun are right for me. The hardest part of getting any of these guns that are kinda rare is that I am week. The gun would be fired on a regular basis. The luger I have now has seen many rounds. Last time I took an aproximate count, I came in at around 6,000 rounds. Heck my Ruger 10/22 has probly seen close to 20,000 rounds. I had fired two bricks in one day last year. If I could keep my finger off the trigger I could afford all these toys.

vf1000ride

In answer to your question further up the page... NO, you do no always have to use the stock with the pistol, but to be allowed to legally attach the stock to the pistol any time in it's life (or yours) you must have gone through the SBR creation, taxation, and registration process.

I am not sure if a process exists at ATF for "divorcing" the stock from the pistol once the registration has occured. For example, you get tired of the stock or decide that you could make a lot of money from selling it and not selling the pistol because you want to keep it. I think you may have to petition ATF to de-register the pistol as an SBR and convert it on paper back to being just a pistol... If you don't do this, you will probably have to go throught the Class III transfer process to get rid of it.

Thanks much goes to stymie for his NFA tax explanations.

Clarification on shoulder-stocked Browning High Powers...

Read the ATF list carefully, because not all of these pistols that CAN be equipped with a shoulder stock are exempted...

Here is the relevant portion of the BATF letter on such things:

Therefore, any Luger or Browning Hi-Power pistol which would be removed from the purview of the NFA if equipped with an original shoulder stock, would also not be subject to the NFA is equipped with a reproduction shoulder stock which either duplicates or closely approximates the dimensions and configuration of the original stock.

It must be pointed out that should one of the subject reproduction stocks be attached to any handgun which has not been specifically removed from the purview of the NFA with an original stock, the combination would be subject to all of the registration and transfer provisions of the NFA.

Hi John... yes, the stock can be divorced from the pistol to *un-SBR* it, by writing a letter to your assigned examiner (no refund of the $200 *making tax*).

All,
Aren't you glad we don't get all the government we pay for?

Tom A

John... the letter that you are referencing ('81)... was overruled ('99).

Check these two links: http://www-2.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs/usr/w...f_letter58.txt

&: http://www-2.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs/usr/w...f_letter70.txt

It must be remembered that rulings can & often do change like the weather. One can inadvertently become a *felon* without any "intent" to do so. The responsibility is up to the individual gun owner to be fully aware of any changes.

NFA violations can result in a 10 year sentence & up to $250,000 in fines for each count. (It used to be only $10,000... lol)

I found myself in an awkward situation after purchasing a Striker-12 shotgun in the early '90s. Semantics played a large role in the reclassification of said weapon to DD (Destructive Device) status overnight due to the meddling of Lloyd Bentsen. It was determined that a weapon deemed *un-sporting* with a bore diameter over 0.5" was therefore a DD. Hence, my shotgun had to be registered on a Form #1 during an *amnesty* period. This entailed duplicate FD-258 FBI fingerprint cards, 2"x2" passport type photos & a CLEO sign-off (later waived). As part of the *amnesty* the $200 *making tax* was waived as well. What a PITA!!!

Anyone caught w/o proper registration of this weapon (the USAS-12 & SWD Streetsweeper were included) would be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.

So... nothing is truly grandfathered & the firearms that we have acquired in full compliance of the laws at the time of purchase can be rendered illegal through semantics at any time.

vf1000ride...
If ammo acquisition is a problem as far as costs go, look into buying Winchester 115gr fmj 9mm 50rd boxes for $3.88 at Bass Pro or Galyan's for a further 10% discount (w/flier from Bass Pro) through April 15th, '03. Can't beat that with a stick & it works in all my Lugers. This is a special sale that doesn't come around too often. Stock up now!

Guys I know that are into NFA machineguns are buying it by multiple cases.

I agree that the 1991 ATF letter appears to contradict the 1981 letter... but for some reason it appears to only apply to Browning HP's...

I think it is about time for someone who has the need to get a new opinion from the current ATF regime since opinions apparently change every 10 years of so...that specifically draws attention to the conflict between the letters... and requests resolution of this conflict...

Unless I am mistaken, Ed Owen retired a couple of years ago and perhaps the new generation of leadership may voice yet another opinion... perhaps even one making sense... :)

Well thats cool that you don't always have to keep the stock on it. Gonna have to read those new links again and see if they make more sence the second time around. The ammo problem is not about price or availability. Just the pure quantity that I tend to shoot. :D I picked up a case each of M2 ball and 7.62 NATO last week. If the weather holds tomorrow is range day. <img border="0" alt="[jumper]" title="" src="graemlins/jumper.gif" /> I have about 400 left in 9mm and I think I have around 250 in 45acp. Gonna be a fun day.