What is my Luger (and what's it worth?)
 

Hi everyone, I inherited several Lugers from my Dad and I'm trying to figure out what I've got here. I think this one is a 1914, and I took photos and made notes of everything I could figure out. For the rest of the information you'll need, I don't even know what I don't know yet, so please be patient with me. I can take more photos if needed.
This gun was in Canada until recently. I assume the "Germany" mark was put there when it came into Canada from Germany. It should also have a mark indicating that it came into the USA from Canada, but I haven't found that yet.

I'll post photos from my phone--give me a few minutes.
Thanks in advance for your expertise!

Photos
 

Here are some photos.

Oh--also, I should point out that as far as I can tell, all the serial numbers match except for the magazine. I need to look at my other ones and make sure they didn't get mixed up.

I took photos of your website's handy note pages and will post those as well. I was only able to partly fill them out because I didn't know what some of the stuff was. (I'm embarrassed to say this but it is what it is.)

Here are my note pages

welcome to the forum - do a new page for each different luger

The USA import marking is the one on the bottom of the magazine well
'germany' marking was required for USA import - but since most of the weapons came through New York, they were stamped Germany (in germany) as an export marking and then were sent throughout the americas.

See the FAQ for help, and ask questions here.

Ed

Edward Tinker, thanks. In fact, the BV in the mark is the initials of the company that did the shipping from Canada to the USA. I should have figured that out....

So--we are thinking that the "Germany" stamp is from years ago and was placed there when the gun was brought in from Germany, and the BV stamp is recent? (Just clarifying.)

An update--the importer is required to put their mark on the gun, plus information about the gun if it's not on the weapon. So it's possible that Borderview did all the marking. They might have had to put the country of manufacture and the type/caliber on there too.
If Borderview put the stamp on, I guess it's possible that this gun was not shipped commercially to Canada, that it might indeed have come in a veteran's duffel bag.
I'll check with Borderview.

Mom, From the looks of the marks I believe you are correct. The import in the curve of the mag well and Germany are bound to have been done at the same time. In all the Germany marked Luger's I have ever seen I have never seen one this small or in this area.

Your 1914 WW1 Luger is a very decent looking pistol. The magazine is a WW2 type with an aluminum bottom. Your 1914 should have a numbered WOOD bottom.

Thanks Jerry--so we'll assume that the magazine is a newer replacement for the original.
I just talked with Borderview and they are checking for sure but it's near-certain that all the information in the mag well (a new term for me) was put there by Borderview in 2018 when they did the export/import.

Any thoughts about the significance of the inscriptions? I found some resources but couldn't find the exact symbols in that order.

The scroll on top of the toggle is the manufacturer, Deutsch Waffen und Munitionfabriken (DWM), the smaller “inscriptions” that you see on the right side of the pistol and the one on the underside of the barrel are proof/acceptance marks from the German military.

Side note, is there a full serial number on the underside of your barrel?

Here's a link to our FAQ PDF document, which you'll find quite useful for reference.

http://forum.lugerforum.com/showthread.php?t=13121

Welcome to the forum.

The acceptance stamp on the bottom of the magazine is a Weimar Eagle (droop eagle) over 63. It was made by / for Mauser.

I'd estimate your Luger's value with the magazine at $1600 if the Luger's numbers are, in fact, matching. There are internally numbered parts that would need to be checked, along with the inside of the grips .

Use extreme care when removing the grips - especially the left one - so as not to chip them near the top and the safety lever.

The barrel looks newer than the rest of the Luger. Also, IIRC, one of our members here makes replacement barrels for Lugers because of some arcane barrel length requirement by the Canadian authorities. It might be worth measuring the muzzle-to-breech length, not that it matters here but it may have been swapped out in Canada.

Nice looking Luger. My WAG would be in the $1200 to $1500 range, depending on the abundance or scarcity of Lugers in where ever you live. ;)

It is the original barrel, or an original replacement; one can see the original DWM(Spandau) firing proof on the rear of the barrel in two of the pictures.

Nice looking 1914 and great job on the photos!

Just need two more that will help. One of the serial # under the barrel and one of the serial # on the front of frame.

For the next guns, I would not worry with posting photos of the forms. It should be adequate if you post the photos you did for this 1914 and the two additional photos requested above.

The magazine is from 1936.

One more picture
 

Hey Pistol, I think I got the information in just one photo! Please let me know if it’s not right.
I didn’t even know there was lettering under the barrel/on the frame, so I’m excited to see what it means.

Bȍ is Bȍhler, a manufacturer of barrels. The 28 is the batch number of the steel.

2995 a is the serial number. 8,82 is the land diameter of the bore.

Very nice example. :D

Heather, as you can see there is a great deal of detail to be discerned from pictures of Lugers, and a remarkable amount of depth of history and research involved in those small details.

Very large reference volumes have been published about the Luger pistol as a result.

This site has some of the world's experts on these details of Lugers. It's quite a remarkable resource, especially when you observe how freely collectors share this information.

There is always something more to learn about Lugers. I refer to the reference books as "Luger University", but the people collecting them often have gone much deeper than that in their research and understanding.

There are some details that are more obscure than others, and that is one of the real advantages of a website / discussion board like this one.

We get a wide range of new Luger owners asking questions here, and welcome them all.

Your Luger is particularly interesting and collectible. That is not always the case.

Lugers often have a long service life. Your Luger was originally acquired by the German military during the Imperial era. As you suggest in post #7, it was most likely brought into Canada by a returning veteran of either WW-I or WW-II. Since the magazine is later, it's more likely a capture from WW-II, but don't forget that replacement magazines could come from any source at any time.

"2995a" is your Luger's legal serial number. It should have been imported with that number, and any documentation referring to it in the USA should use that number.

The use of Boehler steel barrels on DWM Lugers was discussed here several years ago:

https://luger.gunboards.com/showthre...-STEEL-BARRELS Your Luger would fall toward the end of the 1914 list reported to Jan.

One of our European based researchers ("Vlim") confirms in this thread that a close relationship existed between Boehler and DWM prior to 1928. This would imply that Loewe's DWM would be a Boehler customer for a number of supplies.

In Sturgess extensive study of the Luger on page 1055 (red edition) he indicates that DWM acquired it's barrel steel from Boehler in Vienna, and that this was used (both unmarked and around 1913 marked by batch) by DWM when they were manufacturing Lugers. I'm not sure of Sturgess' source for this detail, but since it includes process information through 1942, it was probably August Weiss.

After two world wars, the records from DWM's Berlin / Charlottenberg operations have not surfaced, and original documentation may no longer exist. After Luger production was transferred to Mauser in Oberndorf in 1930, the manager of pistol production August Weiss brought some documentation (as well as tools, gauges, in process parts and supplies like steel) with him in a train. The inventory of that was found in Oberndorf. I'm not aware of original DWM or BKIW documentation of the acquisition of Boehler steel or it's usage in Lugers.

So you could have the barrel replaced and still keep the same serial number?

Which is bringing me to my next question--how much can we tell about the history of a Luger just from the marks on it? I assume some of the marks show the factory in which it was made, and that the barrel was replaced in Erfurt. I know we can't get to "this pistol was owned by Fred Schmidt and was a gift from his wife" or "this pistol was used in xyz regiment" without further markings, but--

--how close can we get?

On the contrary, Boehler barrels are original to some 1913 and 1914 DWM P08s. They were not used as replacements.

Thanks Mr. Erick. Please know I'm trying to hold up my end of the research and larnin' but I'm a bit handicapped by not understanding much about the overall context. Later today, I'll put all these very helpful posts and replies together so I can get a better overall view.

I'm blown away with how generous you folks are with your knowledge.

George, I corrected my post. Thank You! ;)

(I'll make a mental note that Bȍhler barrels were not used as replacements). :thumbup:

Regarding who owned it and when, there is no way to determine the history of the gun beyond the year and place of mfg, unless there are unit markings, which there are not in this case. However in your case we do know who imported it from Canada.
dju

May as well get it all out-
Boehler did not make the barrels, only the steel- which in some cases was tracked by DWM(who did make the barrels) and the barrels subsequently marked with the lot number of the Boehler steel from which they were produced.

Part of studying Lugers involves understanding:

• things that the factories that produced them normally did
• the ways that the factory and it's workers marked them
• the ways that the Lugers were inspected by the factory and the military that ordered them
• how they were marked when they were tested including firing proof testing and acceptance
• the ways firearms were reworked

In most cases, the factories and inspectors used metal dies to stamp markings. These are often prolific on Lugers, and have very specific characteristics, as does their use either before or after the steel was finished in one of several approaches to bluing (really oxidation of the steel).

With enough study and experience, you can start to recognize things normally done by the factory, and things that were done later. This takes time to develop, and never is completely finished.

These things make a difference to the value of Lugers, which are most highly valued in as close to their original manufactured state as possible. These are the ones considered collectible by collectors today.

There are some that are so rare that even when parts have been changed, or they have been refinished they are still considered collectible - but the preference is still for Lugers in their original state.

Understand that in rare Lugers, there is a cottage industry in faking the markings and other manufacturing characteristics. A $1500 Luger could be quintupled in value by manipulating the right markings in a way that would fool an experienced collector. "Luger University" has some self-protection motivations.

Welcome to the addiction.

Yes, looks good!

Jeez, do you guys have a list somewhere?:eek:

The OP said it was imported from Canada.

:)

Oops
 

So gang, I kept wondering why when I clicked on the link to the FAQ .pdf, nothing happened. I forgot that on my computer, .pdfs don't always open in a new window, you have to click on the bottom toolbar to get them to open. (Facepalm.)

Thank you so much for your patience in giving me so much information, some of which I could have looked up myself if I had remembered how to open a blankety-blank .pdf file!

I owe you all a box of donuts.

I say that about the import mark only because I have seen multiple others imported from Canada that were likewise stamped very discretely.
dju

Welcome to this Luger forum from Italy.

I don't claim to be an expert, but I'm not new to this hobby by any means, FWIK you seem to have a pretty good collectible LUGER, and your close up pictures will surely help the veteran collectors on this site to advise you in the correct direction.

So, "one down" with how many more to go?

Keep the photos coming.

Three more to go. One isn't in the country yet.

Next 3 will be easier!

Naw, it's all good. And yes, I'm appreciating the subtle/small/neat import marks. I've heard that not all importers do such a neat job.

I'm sure we are all curious about how much it cost to complete an export/import to the US?

There are some lugers in Canada that I've thought about- but the usual answer is that "it costs too much to do the export/import".

I actually bought a couple of Lugers from some Canadian on this forum a number of years ago. Not sure what the seller had to go thru, but it was a complete nothing-burger for me.

It's not all that hard or expensive to do the export/import from Canada to the US, once you figure out how it works. I think if you're only importing one weapon, it's about $300, but if you're sending a bunch, there is a "bulk discount." That price includes removing the gun from the Canadian registry, doing the paperwork, stamping the gun(s) for import into the US, and shipping them to a FFL near you. Once they arrive at the FFL, they transfer the gun(s) to you. I paid $25 each for this service.

So maybe that sounds like a lot, but it's offset by the fact that quite a few handguns are classed as "prohibited" in Canada, which means they can only be owned by law enforcement, military, etc., and their heirs who are grandfathered in IF they can obtain the necessary licensure and meet the storage requirements, etc. (I think the Canadian government is being circumspect about giving out new permissions to own prohibs--I'm not at all sure that younger LE/Military even qualify--would have to check on that.) So as you can imagine, it's an ever shrinking group, which makes it tough to sell these weapons in Canada. If they're not already selling at a fraction of what they'd go for in the US, I think they will be as the number of possible owners continues to shrink.

One other note is that there seems to be a perception among Canadian gun owners that the government will make it impossible to export to the US--they'll tie the whole thing up in interminable paperwork. But that wasn't our impression--the Registry people were generally very helpful. My impression is that while they don't necessarily want these weapons in the country, they don't want the bad publicity of destroying them, either! The registry people even have a page on their website laying out how to do the export.

If it would be of interest to the group, I'd be happy to write up something specific and fact-checked (as opposed to my sort of general statements here) about how to do the export/import. It seems to me that there are probably quite a number of prohibs in Canada whose owners would be ok with letting them go but don't know how to go about it. US buyers who have the information might be able to make some good purchases!

Just an FYI - for each new gun, four pictures minimum can tell a lot - 1. full top (shows date or no date), 2. full right, 3. full left, 4. front of the frame where the serial number is and if any suffix.

Then add if any stray markings (unit markings, odd markings that are exterior, not interior unless asked (most interior markings are worker markings an dno one can tell you what they mean).

Ed

Thanks for the detailed info.
I was under the impression that a Canadian exporter had to ship the imported pistol to a US "importer" - who then marked it and would sell it on.

I still don't think it can go to just any FFL dealer directly- but then I may be wrong again.

Or your exporter may also have a location in the US and is both exporter and importer?