Toggle not locking at all anymore?
 

Got this Luger about 10 days ago, had some problem getting toggle to lock open. With some effort it would lock. Now it won't at all. Mag in, Mag out, safety on/off the toggle won't remain back. I've attached a few photos, can see what I think is the "hold open latch" (#26) up with the mag in, button pushing up. Drops down when mag removed.

I've cleaned the gun when I got it, field strip, nothing nuts. Have not shot it as no .30 luger locally so ordered. So no reference on what happens when mag empties while firing.

Any thoughts? I've included a numbered parts list for reference. Thank you in advance

Looked at links below for help. Please refer me there if that is the answer

http://forum.lugerforum.com/showthre...e+won%27t+lock


http://forum.lugerforum.com/showthre...e+won%27t+lock

Sorry, photos of toggle and breech are a bit crap, couldn't get phone to focus on the near field.

I’m also interested because my 1920 commercial’s holdopen is very weak and finnicky. Granted it’s not much an issue since I don’t shoot it, but it’s annoying when I’m looking at it or cleaning it.

The advice in the other threads is sound. Looking at your photos, the holdopen spring and basic operation appears OK. I've fixed this issue a few times and here are my bag of tricks. Basically I go down the list until the issue is fixed.
1. Push up on the mag base while attempting to hold open. If this results in improved performance, that is helpful to know although it doesn't immediately fix anything.
2. Remove the grips, operate the action and see if anything changes. If yes, the grips are somehow causing a bind.
3. If possible get a Luger that holds-open correctly. Carefully measure hold-open height when deployed. Compare the engaging surfaces of the hold open and the notch on the bottom of the breech block for wear.
4. Try a new Mec Gar magazine. Lugers can be magazine sensitive. Consider trying several magazines in search of one that will make the pistol hold open (I once tried 5 magazines to fix one pistol).
5. Ask G.T. to replace the spring in the Mec Gar with a stronger one. His contact info is available via a search.
6. Replace the hold-open spring.
7. Replace the hold open itself.
8. If, by comparison/careful measurement vs. other Lugers, you can measure that the hold-open is not going high enough, consider carefully removing metal to allow it to go higher. For most people this means send the gun to an experienced Luger-smith. I have done this myself on one pistol but don't recommend it to home gunsmiths unless you are absoultely sure of your skills, tools, diagnosis etc. Otherwise you can screw things up.

So far I've not had a Luger hold open function that could not be fixed with these steps. This seems to be a common malfunction and can be tricky to fix, but I can attest that is also satisfying to fix. If you don't want to do the above steps, pros like G.T. and Tom Heller are wonderful resources. Good luck and let us know the outcome.

When a Luger holds-open OK via manuel operation, but will not hold open with live rounds, sometimes that means the mainspring is too strong but it doesn't seem like you have hit that issue.

4 Scale, thanks for the solid listed approach and good references. I now have a path to follow. Hopefully successful and I can add one more data point on what worked for me. Again thanks for sharing.

Just a couple things to add:
- the edge and the notch in the bolt look worn- though the pictures are too fuzzy to really tell.
They must be sharp and correctly angled to work correctly.
- I don't know where you can "remove" metal to make the hold go higher??
- Often it is simply a mag that rides too low, if you push up on it and it works- that is the issue.
This may be due to the mag or the mag catch.
- hold open springs, especially replacements, can be too strong
- the button on the mag is too small in diameter on some replacement mags, and original buttons
can be worn, I've seen them flattened from wear on one area, you can rotate the button to a new position

Hope this helps.

The geometry and timing associated with Luger magazine operation is different than in most other Semi-Auto pistols.

This is because of the angle of the grip, and the fact that the magazine had to be designed to fit inside that grip compactly.

For this reason, the overall length of cartridges being correct is critical to the operation of Lugers. Both the 9mm Luger and .30 Luger cartridge use a tapered case body to facilitate extraction. A cartridge with an OAL that is too long or too short will interfere with operation.

The cartridges sit offset to one another with the rim of cartridges in contact with the middle of the body of the next one's case. This can cause the cartridge to cartridge contact point to shift, and the bullet to front of inside of the magazine point to shift in a furrowing direction. That affects timing.

Note that this is quite different than the simpler design of pistols like the P.38 and M1911 and modern pistols with a much more vertical grip.

The hold open operation is activated by the magazine follower button pushing the slide magazine lock up at precisely the right moment before the slide begins to return toward battery. Anything that slows down this will prevent the slide from locking open on an empty magazine.

Dirt in the channel that holds the magazine open lock bar, a weak hold open or magazine spring and delays in magazine timing can all contribute to the failure as mentioned above.

I used a fine abrasive tip on a Dremel tool to polish an area of the frame that seemed to be a bit rough and touched the magazine follower when the mag was empty. The procedure fixed the issue rather dramatically, the pistol went from holding open maybe 50% of the time to 100%. Sorry I can't be more precise of the exact location on the frame, it was a year or two ago.

If your HO is one of Sarco's repros, I find that the rear that actually engages the bottom of the breech block, is not high enough. TH

Lots of good info and it does seem to be the mag, I got one from MecGar as suggested and info is that the 9mm & 7.65 (.30 Luger) ammo is interchangeable in the mag? Hard to believe but ordered and on the way. I have a 7.65/.30 Luger.

I will see if the mag solves problem. I also see a tiny bit of wear and flattening on the slide button. How do I rotate the button? Just with pliers? It seems to be connected to the follower and don't want to break or shear it off while twisting? Just twist slightly?

THanks in advance

The mags do hold both ammo and are interchangeable in that regard. 9mm is just .30 Luger without the bottleneck.

How do I rotate the button? Just with pliers? It seems to be connected to the follower and don't want to break or shear it off while twisting? Just twist slightly?

YES. It is "riveted" in place and usually turns easily, if you break it , GT can fix it for you.
Nothing ventured nothing gained.

Ok, but when I try and turn the button, the follower wants to turn with, suppose I can sort of tweak it a bit more. Additional Mag ordered.....as you say....Nothing ventured.....!!

OP, definitely rule out a mag related issue first. Getting extra Mec-Gar mags is wise. You've got some great advice from the forum's Lugermeisters. Start eliminating each possible culprits. Perhaps you already mentioned this but did you remove and clean the gunk out of and around the H/O? That place seems to be a garbage magnet, which imped function.

Lastly, my brother-in-law was an F15 pilot. I recall him showing me one when they first came out in 1976(?). I flew in the, now old, SH-3's in the USN in the early 70s.

Of course it does, but it will return to the correct position- just move the button a little more to compensate.

The magazine would be the easiest to swap out.
It's very often the culprit and it's easy to check.
The top edges of magazines get bent a lot and it doesn't take much to render them ineffective.

DonVoigt, you mention the notch in the bolt may look worn, I have a better photo attached now. No expert but looks OK with a minor wear indication (may be trying to convince myself) the Hold Back behaves ideally when I put pressure on the bottom of the magazine--100% compliance. I've ordered a new Mag as well.

As I look at the old mag I considered wearing away an RCH (very very thin scale of measurement) of metal at the top of the slide. My concept was to mark a thin line with silver sharpie and then grind away with a dremel until the silver ink is gone. The button would now go up just a bit more and press on the Hold-Open Latch raising it up a bit--as if I was applying pressure from below. The only concern I have is the "follower" might rise a similar amount and then cause additional issues. Has anyone tried removing a bit of the channel as I've indicated with any success?

The bolt notch looks fine when in focus! That's good.
What type mag is that? It doesn't look shaped just right at the top.
Could just be a worn notch in the mag or the mag catch itself, or a defective mag.

Usually the follower is stopped by the feed lips, at about the same time the button stops in its slot.

DonVoigt, the original photo was crap, yes clear here and looks good, so that is good news. As for the type of mag....."uh a black one"? No idea? How could I tell, just poured over it and it has no markings I can see.

Yes, I did this once to try and improve hold open function. I discovered exactly what Don said-the follower kept it from rising. It didn't work.

You could post several views of the magazine, front, back, top , bottom, side views. It may be a POS aftermarket mag and just "won't work"- no matter what you do. JMHO.

DonVoigt, posting multiple photos of mag, couple photos here but bulk of photos at photo-sharing site imgur.

If you Luger Druids and Wizards can ID this mag from these photos well they will tell tales of your magic for years to come.

https://imgur.com/a/G9I2mBO

Link above to other photos; high res.

A new Mec-Gar magazine solved the problem of the "hold open". Popped in new magazine and pulled toggle back, held open 100% of the time. Cycled through multiple times, put in old mag (failed), back to the new one. Good fix

The mec-gar "button" was 2mm higher.

Easy $22 fix. Thanks to all for the feedback and steering me to an easy solution.

Still won't eject properly or cycle next round, this is back to the Fiocchi weakness, get PPU (can't find), or recoil spring strength.

Can't tell the source, but it is obviously aftermarket and with all the rub marks pretty much oversize to boot.

Now that you have solved the magazine hold open problem, I'd retire that mag! :evilgrin:

It's good you solved the hold open problem. On your ejection and cycle issue, IMO your best course is to wait for PPU to become available or somehow secure hand loads that are known to operate .30 Luger actions properly.

Sometimes folks will change out the button on the side of the magazine because of wear somewhere in the pistol. When I think of magazine height in the pistol kinda refers me to the notch in the magazine or the magazine latch itself, this also refers me to feeding height of cartridges.

The little button as you found out effects the hold open height when the mag is empty. The parameters above can enter into the operation of holdopen as well. I think the little leaf spring's main duty is to hold the holdopen itself down into the frame, until it is overpowered by the magazine. Recoil bounce should not effect the leaf spring's capability or you will get premature stoppages.

New oem buttons for magazines are usually available. Probably cost more than the new after market mag you bought though. I once got a Luger magazine that featured a portion of a bridge spike for the magazine button. The previous owner shaped it nicely and it worked. Have to admire using what you have sometimes, rather than throw money at things, all in the eye of the beholder.

I find the Italian magazines of nice quality, works fine in my Lugers; and mine are not all original anymore, shows the flexibility of their product I think.

You took some measurements, now you know how much bigger the button ought to be to work in your current environment. Sometimes tape can be wrapped around the outer edge, and then measured when things begin to jive.

Ammo is only one parameter of the function equasion. Easy to try I reckon and sometimes does the trick. I once had a previously owned Luger that I could barely pull the toggle train out of the receiver, the forks were twisted big time. A bit of a pain in the neck back then, but nowadays some guys have jigs for such work.

Yep, the PPU is the least involved method of repair. But can't find any words or data on why there is none in the country. If the PPU doesn't help then possibly the spring is too strong? Maybe originally for a 9mm barrel?

Chasing gremlins
 

Rick, thanks for the words, I'm going to have to move through this one step at a time. Initally I got some Fiorcchi Soft Tips, the armorer corrected that with me (good guys) and I now have some 7.65 Luger FMJs but the grain is the same, don't think that will solve much really. The Soft Tips did get hung up (as seen in previous photos) but the fact that the toggle isn't left up and open after the last round; each round as I am shooting one at a time, tells me there is more going on here. Bit of research I did had a kit or "service pack" at Wolff springs that was not that expensive that replaces all the springs in the gun. Might get after the leaf spring you mentioned above.

Went to range today (Military Base I live near) and it was closed (?) when normally open on Sundays, closed tomorrow too. Hope to shoot next weekend. Just to put more rounds through the gun--bring it out of hibernation (wishful thinking but improbable). Oh well, life is a marathon, not a sprint. I'll get it sorted.

Oh and my wife said "no shooting rounds into the pool!!?" I thought it was a reasonable way to test the gun? Keep the rounds from harming anyone! Thoughts?

There is PPU "in the country". You have been told that it is produced and imported in batches, and gets largely sold out between "batches".

If you want a box or three for $35 each plus $20 ground shipping, I can get it for you.

You just did not sound like you wanted to spend that- but then I recall you are in California, and ammo must go to an ffl dealer, so then the cost goes up even more.:(

So I guess you just must be patient.
I do not recommend firing into your pool either.:eek:

DonVoigt, was kidding on the pool part. I live in a gated subdivision, people would lose their minds!! HOA would not be happy.
Am in Nevada so not so many restrictions here. Patience I have, generally. Let me see what the FMJs do, get those run through the gun and see. Oddly, the second time I took the gun out, older mag, the gun was ejecting and hold back working when I cupped my left hand and applied pressure to base of mag (slight rise). Not the case with the new Mec-Gar Mag that does provide hold back when toggle is pulled by hand? I need another day at the range to tinker with it some more.

This may help!!?
 

So PPU bought and inbound. Quick look at the
Fiocchi specs:
Muzzle Velocity is 1190 FPS Muzzle Energy is 290 ft Lbs

PPU specs:
Muzzle Velocity is 1280 FPS Muzzle Energy is 413 ft Lbs

I tried to do some research and see if there was any error in these numbers, the Fiocchi Muzzle Energy varied a bit, but less than 5%

That is a huge delta in muzzle energy so that would explain why the PPU is better at working the toggle and cycling the next round. But is this TOO MUCH energy?
Folks have had good luck with this ammo at 7.65 and the Luger?

How does PPU get such a bigger energy in the same casing as the Fiocchi?

One of the energy numbers is wrong.
There is about 16% more energy at 1280 than at 1190.

I have used many rounds of PPU and Fiocchi, the PPU is just a "little" but enough more energy to function in many lugers.

"How does PPU get such a bigger energy in the same casing as the Fiocchi"
They don't!

DonVoigt thanks for the endorsement on the PPU, won't get it to the range until early October and hopefully it sets things right and no more messing around with jammed and stove piped casings.

I own a total of four .30 Luger pistols. The first one I acquired worked great with Fiocchi. The second had all manner of feeding and ejection issues with Fiocchi; I tried all kinds of mainspring and magazine modifications and it still wouldn't work. PPU completely cured all the issues. I then acquired two more .30 Luger pistols, and tested them with both types of ammo in the hope that they would work well with Fiocchi as it is more available. I learned these next two were also jam-o-matics with Fiocchi but loved PPU. In studying the matter not only is PPU a bit more powerful than Fiocchi, the overall length is also longer which seems to make a big difference in eliminating feeding jams.

So 75% of my .30 Luger pistols insist on PPU. Look forward to hearing how yours performs.

4 Scale, thanks for the inputs. I was an "Operational Tester" by trade for a while. Glad to have a few more data points indicating that PPU is somehow the magical round that most lugers crave; at least the 7.65s.
I did not know that the overall length is longer than the Fiocchi!? Is this information available in some Tech/Spec sheets from either Manufacturer? I was looking for Ft Lbs and Muzzle Energy last night and data was NOT at vendors websites and any other info I got from Ammo dealers had a bit of variance. I will measure length when the PPU arrives and compare to the Fiocchi and see what my lots say. Cheers

One more thing to check with the original magazine that was left out of the "list" above. In my opinion it should be tried first...

Try removing the right grip and check functioning of the hold open with the original magazine. If it operates as it should, it is possible that the original magazine button protrudes ever so slightly more than it should and rubs on the right grip preventing proper operation of the hold open mechanism...

New Mag solved hold open problem
 

John, a new mag from MecGar solved my hold open problem. I may have gotten that advice in a different thread. This one may have been diverted a bit......
Actioning toggle by hand with an empty mag holds open the toggle 100% of the time now. It is the rounds (Fiocchi) that are not cycling the toggle open enough to lock back on the last round. PPU being shipped now.

Maybe put some masking tape on the back of the frame where the toggle impacts. After shooting check to see if the tape shows signs of toggle impact. That will help you isolate the problem.
dju

The tape is in my gun bag, that's on the list as I continue tracking down variables.

The information was mentioned to me by forum member G.T. who is expert in many areas of Luger function, especially anything to do with magazines. I had asked him to help troubleshoot why the pistol would not function with Fiocchi. After receiving his information, I measured several rounds from both manufacturers and confirmed that yep, PPU is longer.

I've got a digital micrometer I use in other hobbies, will do another measurement of the two brands, post the results here. May not be same results others get but will be SAME micrometer comparing the two brands.