Broken Hold open 1918 DWM
 

Hi All,

Is there any way to bond / weld these two pieces back together? I know this is a "long shot," but I'll take the risk and ask anyway.

Photos below:

Thanks for your time and advice :)

There must be hundred of ways to put that thing back together. As long as you don't use it to shoot anymore.

Sometimes It makes me laugh (not really I am taking this to the extreme ) about not shooting a collectible for fear of breaking an irreplaceble numbered part. Well if it's not going to be shot ever just superglue the darn thing. No one will know the difference. :evilgrin:

Well, it is a reblued, matching parts shooter. Nice gun really.
Bought it from a Lugerforum friend.
I'll look into salvaging that original HO, just to see if it can be done.
But I'll also replace it.....
Thanks :)

You can shoot the pistol without the hold open. Just leave it out of the gun.

It's a part that requires fitting, and is somewhat precision in manufacture. You would probably get the best results by replacing it and the spring.

The part is hardened. It's interesting to see it snap there...

That is were they all snap. And I have witnessed personnaly a significant number do just that, generally jamming up the action as it happened to RShaw. Which is just what one needs in the middle of a match :rolleyes:.

Never happened to me, because as I said in the other thread I remove it prior to shooting.

Always new things to learn....
Thanks....

From my hearsay knowledge of micro welding, I would say the real question is cost. A tungsten inert gas ("TIG")micro welding expert can weld very small parts. There are also other methods. You'd then need to have a skilled person shape the part and re-fit it to the pistol. Both require expertise and equipment.

I asked Charles Danner about TIG welding once, and he said that while he didn't do it he had a resource. Charles is an expert rust-bluer of firearms, I don't have his contact data with me as I write this but you could find him by searching the forums. My exprience in getting one-off things repaired via skilled welding is that the hard part is finding someone. Intricate welding is almost an art form and artists can be "challenging" to deal with. That said, a well-executed weld repair is IMO a thing of beauty itself.

VERY interesting!!
Thanks!!
Cost is probably pretty steep, and for a shooter?
Mmmm......
In any case the option is there. I'll look into it anyway. Might be surprised!
"Nothing ventured, nothing gained?"

I mentioned cost in my first sentence for a reason. One-off work from real craftsman is either free (a friend or friend-of-friend) or fantastically expensive, in my experience.

This thread has made me pause and evaluate. I have two all-matching, re-blued "shooters". My problem is, I find myself viewing them as collectibles because of the matching. If a numbered part ever breaks I will likely do exactly what you are doing. I'm thinking maybe I need non-matching shooters...

Hi 4 Scale,
Well, I'm happy you see my point! My shooter is all matching like yours, except now for the broken HO. The gun has obviously been refinished- (therefore regarded as a shooter by any "serious" collector)- a very nice refinishing job BTW. I'm keeping that broken part in any case.

As you must know, matching parts = better functioning, in general, but there are many non matching shooters out there which function very well.

Looking at it another way, you can obtain a nonmatching shooter very easily! Just shoot yours until a numbered part breaks and replace it with (of course) a non matching part.

I have fussed enough about this, yes it's annoying, but otherwise one never shoots these special firearms. No I'm not going to shoot an original finish, matching collector. Forget that! But my shooter now hasn't lost THAT much value, and I bought it to shoot!!

I know exactly how you feel :)

No matter how well the weld, it is still going to need 'fitting'. Milling preferably, filing probably. It will never be original; it will always be 'repaired'. :(

Best to just get an un-numbered holdopen and keep mum about it. :rolleyes: :p :D

Well, I think I should replace the hold open. But I won't shoot with it. Don't want to break it AGAIN. I imagine these parts would be subject to breaking more than other parts, because of the strain placed at the right angle bend each time it performs it's job after the last round.

A question here- if the gun is sold without a holdopen- purely as a shooter of course, how much would the value be diminished? Just your best "guestimate"

What do you think?

Numrich lists -

Hold Open Latch Assembly Product #: 465260
Part Key: 26

$55.90



But that's a guess-what-you-get... :rolleyes:

I would ask, why doesn't it have a hold open?

As a shooter, its the replacement cost I would deduct.

And why wouldn't you pop in a replacement one - if you are going to shoot it?

Ah! It could be more expensive. ;) But only if it never had one in the first place.:D

The first P08s didn't have them. But the Army Board reconsidered and ordered them to be added. The pistols were to be sent to Erfurt Arsenal for the job. But in the summer of 1914 as war seemed eminent those that were in Erfurt but not yet modified were asked back. And those that were scheduled for modification after "war were declared":D never went to Erfurt. But, there are much less Lugers without holdopen than the other type.

"Why wouldn't you pop in a replacement one, if you're going to shoot it?"
Because I don't want to break it again.

I shot again today and I can get used to doing without I think.
Ah well.... these things happen. I'm ordering another one anyway.
Think I'll put it in and shoot with it perhaps... but maybe not so often.
Thanks for all the replies and input :)

The gunsmith that repaired my P08 bought a new unnumbered Swiss hold open. It did need fitting and a few adjustments before he had it to his liking. Works flawless.

I think there is only a small portion of the worlds population that can tell you everything
you should know about a Luger. I saw one at a gun show...perfect reblue and the guy
wanted $2500 for it. I told him the toggle didn't match. He said so? I asked if it would
shoot...He said probably. I asked if he would take less....he said no. I watched a while
and a moron bought it for $2500 and he knew less than I do. They sell in any condition
if your not at a luger collectors convention. Whether they shoot or not they look cool.

Wow! That's painful. That is the unique appeal of these particular firearms which others just don't quite have in same way, hard to describe. A Colt SAA comes close, but that "allure" is still different.

I know I will get flack from this , but I don't see any advantage to numbering every
part on a luger. Well I guess having one that survived time and still has them all together. I bet the gun would shoot just as well without all that. Break a part on a Colt SAA and they stick another in it and move on.

I suspect that when Lugers were first built way back when, that the parts were uniquely hand fitted to one another in a particular pistol. During the process, one can imagine that the firearm assembly is assembled/disassembled several times for fit and finish; probably to include the barrel/receiver interface. Numbering might be a way of keeping track of what parts go with what parts(assembly). Some believe that the index mark across the barrel shoulder and receiver face is an indicator as well, some do not; kinda like numbering to some degree.

Today to some numbering means little, it is the fit that really matters. Of course, the converse is true. Lots of funny money in the later in my opinion, but to each their own. Just what one enjoys; more power to everyone.

To the collector, breaking an "original" part is heartbreaking from several points of their view. Breaking an "original" part to a shooter, simply means another part has to be replaced and fitted to the pistol.

After a 100+ years of sometimes hard existence and reworks of various good and bad types, some find it hard to imagine that original Lugers exist still. I guess I am in that group; but lots of folks collect based on some concept of originality purely too.

Originality has many definitions, some to the seller and some to the buyer I guess. Sellers seem to always know what is really original and what is not.

Last year I bought a matching DWM 1918, original finish, including 1 matching mag. The only thing missing was the hold open. I suspect it suffered the same fate. Bought a hold open assembly from Tom and back in business.

I always figured that Hitler had a brotherinlaw that sold number stamps.

Not really flack. But, Lugers, by design have really tight tolerances, parts need to be fitted to the individal gun. Numbering the parts will. First guarantee that the fitted parts will go to the right gun in the final assembly. And second to prevent inadverted swap of the parts in field group maintenance. Unintentionally swaping parts in Lugers can bring lots of problems that can go from the gun not working at all to ending up with a machine pistol on your hands.:eek:

Even in the SAA replacing some parts will need fitting for proper function. The hand, the bolt the hammer, the trigger and the cylinder may or may be not full drop in. Even in the 1911 that was made with parts interchangeability in mind some parts need to be fitted for proper function.

Kurusu don't you think they went a little overboard...number stamped on my firing pin.
Heck the fitting part on it was to drop it in.

I often wonder how many of those "number matching" P08's are forced matched. There is really no way to tell if original or someone with the skill punched the numbers. Any font, any size, any proof mark can be had on ebay. I'm relatively new to collecting lugers and I've come to the conclusion that the best bet is trying to find a complete rig vet bringback with papers.

Well, whether they went overboard or not will continue to be a debatable question.

Fact is, there are collector guns- (original finish, all matching parts original Lugers, P38's and others out there with numbered parts, which implies- best fit and therefore optimal functioning, as well as all original parts and finish as from the factory) I think a force matched gun can be distinguished from an original matching pistol by a skilled experienced Luger enthusiast... Halo's, fonts, stanping depth and position, characteristics, etc. In the same way, people skilled with handling cash, can tell a bogus bill from the real thing. Takes a practiced eye and a trained hand....

And then there are the "shooters" (many matched, some nonmatching, with finish issues, pitting, etc etc, which are not so interesting to a collector, but are great to shoot.) Many nonmatching shooters are known to be reliable and accurate at the range.

The history buff / collector side of me continues to be annoyed over breaking the matching holdopen in my shooter, while my "shooter side" realizes I will get over it. Let's face it, it's not a life threatening event. So I order another holdopen, take care of this gun and shoot this special firearm.

The collector side of me also keeps my collector DWM off the range; that gun is my first Luger ever... it has a different place for me really. That place is not the range!

The firing pin / striker is a fitted part. The sear has to be properly fitted during installation.

The reason parts on Lugers were numbered at the factory is that they were fitted to an individual pistol.

The fonts used at the Luger factories are reasonably identifiable. Most force matched guns have the original factory number struck out and the new number added, so you can generally tell when this was done.

What Mark already said. The firing pin is fitted to the pistol. Just dropping one in can bring headaches if you are unlucky.

A sear bar that does not fit the firing pin can even produce doubles or triples. Not agreable. And if it happens during a match you're toast.

Well whether totally original, forced matched , or mismatched , they are a blast to
imagine your in a foxhole with attacking troops and dump a full mag at a target as
fast as you can. That toggle jumping around with each shot is very soothing.

F.W.I.W. firing pins were unnumbered on all Imperial Navy Lugers and Commercial's of the period and probably later as well. Hold-opens were unnumbered on all 1906 and 1908 Navies. I believe the Army numbering of these parts was due more to the German ethos of "Ordnung muss sein" (There must be order) than the need for any actual fitting.
Norman

To tell the truth, I don't even notice the toggle moving.

Dan at ACCU-TIG.COM has saved me by Tig welding small parts many times. Excellent work, fast turnaround, reasonable cost. And yes, he is a friend of mine.

Ahh Thank you Doug,
I would like to contact him.