All About Halos Pretty Please!
 

For my last fourteen years I have been haunted by halos or the lack there of!!!Some legitimice a luger solely if one exists or not!!All I know that they occur on some luger and never on others. Can they be faked or embellished. What about reworks. I want to start a thread that we can refer to. Please share your knowledge so young and old alike can reasonably tell just what to look for, models with most likely legit! Possibly post some legit samples and what to look for as boosted, faked or real! You will provide a great service to both young and old collectors alike!! After 14 years I'm begging for all your help. Please add on all your own thought and experiences! You will do a great service to all!!! Eric

Were the Lugers fitted, assembled and numbered in the white before proof testing and subsequent blueing? I thought that markings that are in place before blueing do not display halos. I also thought that halos occur on numbers that are struck on blued surfaces.

Admittedly I could be wrong and await feedback.

Yes, I agree. I would like to know more about this subject also.

Presence or absence depends on the time of mfg, model, and there were changes from early to late on the same model.

That said, it would be "nice" to have the info in one place- but it can be found by diligent search and reading, here and on the other luger forum.

Don many of us neither have the time or resources to research such a an important topic. Their existance or lack of legitimate the authenticity of a particular luger! What lugers must show have halos? Should all navys have halos? Yes, very important and maybe placed in a separate section in which we can easily refer~The validity of a luger often depends on this single trait! It is not addressed in our 'Question And Answer Section!

FWIK, but surely the real experts will soon chime in, reblued pistols can't have any halo, as the halo effect can only be the result of the already blued steel being struck by marking tools.

Kind regards.

Sergio, Are there early luger without halos that are legit? I ask is this a determining factor? Here is a 1908 commercial with no halo~My question, where are the must be on what models to be legit?

So you want someone else to do the work??? :soapbox:

Knowledge is learning what you don't know! Intelligence is the ability to make others believe others that you are Intelligent!!

Searching and sifting out the specific info can take a little effort and sometimes luck, whether it's on the forums or in reference books, so I understand the desire for a quick answer. The labor would be minimal if someone knows, off the top of their head. During the time I've been a member, there have been several threads discussing halos--how/why they occur, and where they should generally be found, and on what. There also may be an overview in the FAQ, but I really don't know...

I agree with what Dick and Don have commented.

I learned a lot about halos re: 1906 American Eagles at this thread.

http://luger.gunboards.com/showthrea...wbie-education

I view understanding and evaluating halos as an advanced collector skill. There seems to be significant variation between years and types re: halos depending on the particular Luger type discussed. And even for variations where halo presence/absence/appearance appear to adhere to general conventions, there seem to be variations.

My own approach is to try and learn about halos for just those variations I'm interested it, as obtaining a broad knowledge of halos for many variations would require examination of many, many pistols, preferably the real thing. Photos help but nothing beats actually inspecting a pistol. I think halo evaluation and knowledge is just one of those areas where you must spend time if you wish to become competent.

Thats part of why I love lugers besides the years of friendship I have development! There are always different questions and different answers and opinions. I look foward daily to open up another luger treasure discussion. Its our common love for German excellance that we share now and for the last hundred years. Our passion is timeless as is our friendships over many years! Eric

Eric,
Judging by the sheer number of threads you have initiated and posts
you have made, no one has more time and resources than you.
Norm

Norm, before my stroke I was a trial lawyer for over 20 years I learned asking the right question is much more valuable and telling than the answer as there are always more answers. I suffered a subdural hematoma causing permanent brain damage that affects my short term memory and motor skills. I constantly spell Debbys' name wrong. Our forum has been the best therapy although I have use of only one finger for typing! I often repeat things and for that I'm sorry!! Luv Ya All, Eric

Hi Eric,
I'm well aware of your disabilities and you have my sympathy. My point is that if you have the time and skills to ask all these questions then you have the time and skills to read the answers by searching the forums.
Norm

Norm, I understand your point, however I'm searching not only for myself but for new or old member who share an interest in the same topic. Above are posts interested in the halo issue. We can't assume new or older member possess your luger brilliance also share by some of our experts! This is a very important topic to myself and others or I would not spend over an hour slowly posting this topic! Can you please address this issue or direct myself and a few others where to find out about halos. All I seek is an answer or where to look! I don't know the answers and it is a very important topic!! Pretty Please!~ My single typing finger is getting tired!! PS I followed your advice and there are over 100 threads for halos on Jans' site but only seek a few simple answers~ Thank You for your contributions~

gun in post no. 5 is not halo example. but example of blueing loss.

Thank You Ben. I have never heard of blueing loss! Can you explain what it is and how it appears only in that spot! Are they post production as there are French proofs. I like to learn something every day! Eric

Sorry, Eric,
but there are no "simple" answers to complicated subjects. This "rant" is not directed at you- you post many intresting and informative links and ask good questions.

But remember, as few as 10 or 50 serial number units might be the difference between presence or absence of halos.

Then you have to explain what a halo is, and what it looks like, and as someone above said- wear can look like a halo, and "white stuff" in markings makes halos tough to see. And some halos are so faint, one might say they don't exist- and be wrong and cost some one else $$ or opportunity.

Speaking as one who has taken the time to write a book(not on lugers), when no one else would; no matter how much detail you put in or how many times you proof read what you write- there are individuals who revel in the opportunity to point out that "you" missed this or "you left that out" or "that isn't correct", or "how do you know" or " grandaddy brought one back and it wasn't like that- no body ever touched it either". Many fewer ever say thanks for the hundreds of hours of work.

Sometimes it just ain't worth the effort. Many of us can and do spend 30 minutes or an hour photographing and writing a detailed post on a new to us luger, and get one comment.

Sorry, but spoon feeding or making it easy to find instant answers on the internet without any effort are sore points with me ! :(

Understood! TKS BEST ADVICE!!!

Probably the simplest explanation would be holster wear; but could be from hanging on a peg for display, or resting the barrel on "something" when firing.

If it were a Mauser Broomhandle, I'd say it was from being carried in a wooden holster stock.

OK Eric... Bluing is an oxide layer on the surface of the steel. Its thickness in in the range of a few molecules. Abrasion will remove it. A grinding wheel would be one extreme of abrading away the finish layer, but it will happen eventually if the pistol is rubbed on anything often enough. If you can remember rubbing a penny on the carpet when you were a kid to shine it up, it's basically the same thing. The bluing on the grip straps is handled over and over, and simply wears away where it's repeatedly contacted. Dirty hands and their perspiration will take their toll. Inserting and removing a pistol from a holster, however soft, will do the same thing wherever the holster is rubbed by the gun on its way in and out. Voila! Holster wear! It happens mostly on the high spots and corners because they stick out the farthest and are the first areas rubbed. If we extend this thought to the elevated, "upset" steel pushed up and out from under a die hammered into the surface, it is obvious that its peaks are susceptible to bluing loss simply because they stick up a little bit compared to the surrounding, undisturbed surface. I hope this is a satisfactory and coherent explanation...

While everybody else was typing, I penned a brief description, for Eric...and beyond. It took a little time, as Don has pointed out, to craft the piece, try not to forget obvious details, etc. to make it clear and accessible. I was also thinking about comparing bluing loss with halos, but decided to keep it simple rather than explain halos, too, particularly since we explored that topic thoroughly not too long ago.

Although it might be possible to "go to the well once too often," my impression is that we will do the best we can in most cases, even if it only happens to be to suggest reading the FAQ or running a search. That's part of what makes this forum the best.

Dave , Thank you for your patience and common sense approach. Your explanations are priceless. Your thoughts shall be shared by all. You and Don are my heros to which I will always be there for you if needed! God Bless! You do more to heal me than any doctor or drug!! Our FAQ is priceless!! http://www.lugerforum.com/ Under General Information Section Just noticed Ed updated May 16, 2017~

David, thanks for your coherent explanation.

Gun steel is softer than we probably would like to think...

Halos are also caused when the blued steel surface is stressed and physically moved as the die plows into the steel displacing the metal structure around the places the die pushes into.

As the blued surface is plowed, the very thin areas spread apart in the process look lighter because the silver steel is pushed to the surface making the blued magnetite (the black oxide state of iron) thinner.

Those high spots are also more subject to abrasion wear, as David says above.

Should the numbers on the barrel have halos? That probably is most dependent upon whether the barrel is blued before or after the digits are stamped into the surface with the dies. Stamp the metal, then blue it and the bluing will be uniform. Blue it before you stamp it and you'll get halos.

It's probably possible to crudely fake halos by lightly applying chemicals that destroy bluing like "Iron Out" or "Naval Jelly". if that has been done, only very close examination of the area will help you determine if the bluing is real or faked.

blah, blah - either you live with Eric as he is or you don't! I have seen Eric go from barely able to write and he does well now. If he gets out of bounds, then we tell him.

In reality all these hundreds of words, you guys who wrote it could have told Eric and it would be over!

1. What lugers have halo's?
a. those made before salt bluing
b. markings before bluing
2. what is halo's - banging of the metal to other metal and it causes an indentation that spreads the metal, in short, it makes a halo

---
personally I have seen good halos on the oddest lugers and other times, very nice looking pre-1937 (??) have almost no halo's. simsons seem to have lousy halos... why? unsure

Eric,
Early 1906 Navies, the no suffix block, do not show halos. ALL later Imperial Navies have haloed barrel serial numbers. 1908 Navies like your #2505b, as I've told you several times in the past, should show distinct halos, if they don't, they've been refinished.
Norman

Thank you all, I'm so sorry!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! At least I'm improving. My short term memory loss is forever permanent because of a subdural hematoma!! Ed, for many years you have been my forum guardian angel. Thank you for working with me!!!!

Ed,
what you write is true , but way short of comprehensive.
It is way too simple for such a complicated subject.

There, you "good deed" is now punished!:evilgrin:

And that has what to do with this subject being discussed?

Wrong location~