Inherited family treasure
 

My dad has had this since he was 11. That was as a boy in Holland in 1945. It was that one thing I looked at as a family treasure. Lots of mixed info that I have found and trying to figure out a manufactured time would be nice. My 1st WWII firearm but I hunt deer with an Eddystone Model 1917. I love and respect these old weapons. But firing it isn't necessary either. Was considering having it inspected by my gunsmith and taking it to the range if possible. I've included a picture of the spare magazine and what I believe to be the cartridges that were in the magazine when he got it. This was April 1945. He used to keep it wrapped up in a cloth but at some time in the last 25 years he got a P38 holster I didn't realize he had been storing it in.

Wow, at first I did not like the shiny of the bluing (thinking reblued), but that is what is tricky about internet pictures.

Really nice. 1685a would be the 11,685th Simson luger made by them. The highest serial number I have is 1888a - and Simson ended production sometime in 1934 - so a wild guess would say that yours was made around 1933?

Really nice having the matching magazine. NOTE that yours although an S toggle, does NOT have a sear safety, many do. A sear safety equals police usage.

I would be curious to know the area your dad found this? For several reasons, one reason is that I lived in the Netherlands for seven years (1993-2000).

Ed

Dinxperlo in the Gelderland.

I don't know that town, will look it up, although I know where Gelderland is.

Fascinating, have been close, but not there that I remember. The town I lived in was the same, literally had a street shared by the Netherlands and Germany (like his town)...

We had CEC sites (combat equipment sites) 'up north' by Coevorden, and several along the border in Germany, so I traveled all over.

Ed

Overloon is where the bloodiest tank battle ever on Holland soil took place. Month after Market Garden. So about 45 minutes from Arnhem We won that one but the 7th Armor got pretty beat up.

So the high polish blue on this gun is original and correct for Simson's?

I still think this luger has been reblued. Bill

I agree with Bill. It is a wonderful family heirloom, and as Ed has identified, one of the Simson's manufacture--- but it has been reblued. Much polishing has taken place and pits have been blued over.

You have a wonderful family heirloom with exciting personal history (that you shared in another thread). Enjoy it.

Every luger has a story! Unfortunatly most have been forgotten~

If it was reblued it was done prior to 1945. Certainly can not deny something that could have been done prior to his possession of it.

Agreed on the reblue. It is also missing the takedown lever spring.

If it was reblued it was done prior to 1945. Not necessarily. People do things we don't know about all the time even though we may live in the same house.

Such as... He used to keep it wrapped up in a cloth but at some time in the last 25 years he got a P38 holster I didn't realize he had been storing it in.

Your Father likely had it spruced up and never said anything to you about it.

Thanks for all the comments. I have an appointment with my gunsmith on Saturday and we're going to disassemble, clean and inspect. I'll report back with what he discovers. I'm okay with the truth and I'll leave that up to the professionals

Just don't count on many gunsmiths knowing anything about lugers. Bill

Agreed Bill but this is one I trust.

I trust my local gunsmith too. But when he gets a Luger in, he calls me. ;)

(Because he knows I read the threads here!) :thumbup:

If you need a second opinion let me know. I am not too far away from you.

Hello David, and welcome to the forum.

You have a rather rare Simson & Co. manufactured Luger that was one of the last they made during 1933 at the very end of the Weimar Republic. Less than 12,000 (total) were made by this company, and all the parts in it were marked with inspection die stamps. This makes them unique as well.

The photos showing the very dark bluing with edges that appear rounded gives the impression that it was refinished. So do the pitted areas of the trigger plate that appear to be blued over. This appearance may be due to the lighting which is uneven and not flat - and that can tend to change the actual way the surfaces look.

An experienced collector can determine the originality of the finish by inspecting it in hand.

A very small number of gunsmiths have any experience working with Lugers. Use extreme care allowing an inexperienced gunsmith to disassemble your gun. Like doctors, gunsmiths will rarely tell you what they do not know.

While a refinish would affect collector valuation, these pistols are so rare (and finding one with it's original magazine, even more rare) that there is still considerable interest.

If you have a holster with it, do not store it in that holster. That can lead to the corrosion you see on the trigger plate. If it is missing the takedown lever spring, replace it prior to trying to fire it.

Most of us do not recommend firing collectable or rare Lugers because numbered and marked parts are next to impossible to replace.

The headstamp on the base of the ammo will help someone here determine when it was made, and by whom...

Congratulations. Thanks for sharing it! Marc

mrerick, as a hospital CEO, I can vouch for that advice about doctors. :thumbsup:

Your post in general provided some excellent advice and comments.

Marc, I have a P 38 holster. I took the pistol out of it for storage in my cabinet. I would like to begin trying to find a way to trade for the correct one just for conversation sake.

I understand peoples hesitation when I say I am going to my gunsmith with it. He may not be a P08 expert but he is an expert at what he does. I am not looking to him to evaluate the gun, just stop any further deterioration that may be occurring and to evaluate the condition of the metal parts and bore. He will also check head space and a few other things I have no idea of. I know he has repaired a few and uses Simpson LTD for one of his resources.

I think my crappy pictures have misrepresented the pistol a bit.

Firing it isn't as important to me as what it represents on a personal note. I am the same way with my collectable motorcycles. They were made to ride and ride them I will.

I look forward to learning more about this pistol and other variations although I have too many expensive hobbies as it is!

Dave

Totally off topic but...
I would love to see pictures of your collectible motorcycles in the off topic section. I'll bet I'm not the only one.

I second the bike pics suggestion

I promise to post bike pics in the near future. Also want to write up my experience with the gunsmith. Today I am represnting our local chapter of our state Surveyor's society at the Train Fest.

Say what? There's a train show somewhere??? Diesel locomotives??? Coal or wood fired steam locomotives??? :eek:

I like trains! :D

Model RR show in West Allis, WI at State Fair Park

I ride out to the PA RR museum on my bike a couple times a year
and also have been collecting Lionel trains my entire life

I grew up in the 50's/60's. Our back yard bordered on three rail tracks; two close together, separated from the third by a long pond. There was a cherry tree on the back fence of our yard. Us kids would climb the tree and eat cherries in the Summer while the trains raced by, six feet away. We were at face level with the passenger coaches - We'd wave and grin, but of course we never saw their reactions. They'd be a hundred yards away by the time they realized three or four kids were in a tree waving at them. :D

The engineers of freight trains would toss us big sticks of white chalk. Nowadays you can buy them everywhere, but back then only train people had them. And happy kids. :p :rolleyes: ;)

The local grade school had bunches of 16mm short movies. Several were horror story-type films about the rail lines. Like the one with the little girl blinded by thugs throwing stones at passing train windows. Or the one with the kid walking the rails and his foot got stuck in the switch. Times were much different back then. :o

Better or worse??

Different!;)

A bit of a follow-up.

Went to the gunsmith (Roger) as earlier mentioned. Roger is a wealth of information. His particular areas of absolute expertise are the Garand and the 1911. He also has a really nice collection of K98 Mausers and a few P08's among others.

We started the day by just documenting initial observations. I told him that others saw that the spring was missing from the take down lever. Funny, when you disassemble it for the first time and look at the receiver in the light, how obvious it is to see the missing pin. He pointed out right away that the bolt did not stay open with the mag in. Upon disassembly the holdopen lever thingamabob was missing.

It was great in that Roger took the time to explain the operation of the action, safety and firing pin operation. Under his direction I field stripped it and we evaluated it. Beside some surface rust at the rear of the lower receiver, it is in very nice condition and all stamped parts match except for the obvious missing hold back.

We talked about the straw coloring and how it comes to play. More so for me to understand the process.

It was his opinion that the gun was reblued and that it was his opinion that it was done in Germany, and explained the blueing process and how it was applied here in the US and over in Europe in the period that it was applied.

I showed him how the right grip tipped forward and I was uncomfortable with that. He explained the repair process and I told him I wasn't interested, which he said that he felt the same.

Based on our discussion I fired the pistol. It operated as it should and had good precision on target although we both agreed it shot high. The matching mag fed perfect and the spare mis-fed the last round. It was nice shooting as in nice like my .380 as opposed to my .45.

I think I may set it up to shoot once a year or so. I am ordering the missing pieces as well as replica grips and magazines. We didn't remove the grips as I decided to wait until we needed to take the gun apart for repairs as Roger wont take the grips off without grinding down a screwdriver specifically to fit and I didn't have all day. The grips, if matching, will be sealed in a bag.

When I got home I stripped it down and cleaned the heck out of it. It really operates smoothly now.

Knowing these things would it even matter anymore if I had it refinished or should I leave it as is? My plan is to keep it and I wonder if I should have it stripped and any deterioration stopped by chemical process? I don't plan on shooting it on a regular basis but once a year or so is not out of the question.

Opinions welcome (like asking for a kick in the sack)

And thank you I do respect your opinion

I leave it as it is, it appears it was already re-finished once; another time won't make it any better.

Just OIL it, so stripping or chemical process is needed.

It does not take a special screwdriver to get the grip screws out, most any medium screwdriver will do- I doubt they are stuck.

You need to get the grips of and check for further rust; and lubricate the moving parts in the grip.

Agree with Don. Strip it and clean/oil. If you find rust work it lightly with 0000 steel wool and oil. Bill