1941-2 Luger Black Widow Grips
 

I have looked at a couple pairs of these grips and was wondering if there is an easy way to tell real from fake. I heard fake ones are made from plastic and will make a different sound when hit against a table. Any info greatly appreciated.

John, There is always the hot pin test. Heat a hat pin to glowing red. Touch it to the back of a grip. It will plunge into plastic and smoke like crazy. Bakalite it will skate over.

That might not go over well with the owner of the shop. I did notice that there was a different number of threaded holes on each set of grips.

That might not go over well with the owner of the shop I don't know why not. It will confirm what he has one way or another.

Many gunshop owners wouldn't like for anyone to alter the item and then not purchase it. Ignorance is bliss, you know.
Jack

Seems like the exercise would be a learning moment for a gun shop owner wishing to expand on his knowledge base. Knowledge is power.
Just as an aside..there is a very good tutorial over on Jans site on bakalite grips. I used it recently to authenticate a set of black grips. AFTER I tried the pin test to tell me they were genuine bakalite. Once I had that figured out..I spent an hour studying to tell me everything I wanted to know about the type. Just SEARCH black grips and you will find it.

Thanks for the info. I am checking out a p08 that gun shop advertises as a black widow today. This is a second look at the pistol. I have had the grips off and field stripped the Luger. I will mention your test and let you know what he says and does.

If you can, take good quality sharp focus photos of both the inside and outside of the grips and we should be able to tell you if they are genuine original bakelite or plastic reproductions without "smoke checking" them.:eek:

Bakelite grips are very smooth on the back, with no bubbles or surface imperfections. The threads in the screw keeper holes are sharp, with crisp edges. there is no warpage on originals, if they have been kept well. Under bright light, they have color nuances within them, especially at the edges, where plastic is very uniform. take the two grips and gently knock them together. Real bakelite with "clack" like a set of castanets.

Hi to all .... I was not able to make up my mind on the Black Widow I have been looking at. THe gun shop owner assured me that grips were real. He did mention that real grips clank when hit against something. I mentioned the hot needle and he said he had not heard about test. I am not sure which grip had 2 threaded holes and the other had one. This added more questions about the gun. He also mentioned that only black widow lugers had P08 stamped on the side of the gun. To me that seemed false. I am kinda new to Lugers been into p38's. I was wondering what the board feels about proof marks and what condition is acceptable for a collector grade gun. I see many really nice guns (been kept in a desk drawer during the war) with faint proofs markings. Is that a sign that work has been done on a gun? Lately a lot of guns turning up, the hunt continues.

John, real grips clank when hit against something. Your clank is my clink.

The hot pin test is the only diffinitive test. It will NOT HURT genuine bakalite. It will simply bounce off and skate on it. No smoke, no penetration. So ...if the grips are real..no harm. If fake.. there will be a puff of white smoke and a small pin hole on the backside of $29 grips. Stupidly simple.

Well, for starters, there's no such thing as "black widows". All byf 41 and byf 42 have P.08 stamped on them. Regardless of the type of grip panels used.

Thanks Jerry for your very simple test. I ended up passing on the pistol. If I remember correctly, I did see some bubbles on the back of the grips. Grips could have been real but they were also a little beat up so I passed. I am going to start taking pics in future. Thanks to everyone else who had input. The hunt continues

John,
good choice. Bubbles are a 99% reproduction indication in my experience; not only for luger grips but for any plastic grips.

Real grips are molded under pressure so there should not be air bubbles. The molds used were also of a good quality so the inside of the parts are neat and clean. A lot of repro grips are rubber mold copies based off a real grip and cast in epoxy or some other material and usually done from a less sophisticated molding set up or even open faced molds. Modern injection molded grips in plastic, as noted above, will have different properties than bakelite or acetate used in the WW1 and WW2 years.

I recently bought a 41 Black widow with wood grips that appear to be original to the gun. I am VERY new to Lugers...so were wood grips common on 41 pistols or has the gun potentially been tampered with?

It would be impossible to tell if the wood grips were original to the gun from the factory, or if they were replacements at some point in the guns life... Are they numbered to the gun? that would be an indicator.

"Some" Mausers during this period did leave the factory with wood grips... and some (the majority) left with the black bakelite grips. I would consider them to be original to the gun unless you have some evidence that they were of later or aftermarket production.

Just my $0.02

Gkitch, your 41byf luger with wood grips is what I call a Brown widow. Black widow is a collectors term for guns with the black grips. As far as rarity goes I believe there are more wood grips seen on 1941 byf's than guns with the black bakelite.

spray 409 on a Qtip, rub on the back of the grip, if the Qtip turns yellow its bakelite, my wife collects bakelite jewelry and this is the standard test, does not damage the bakelite

I did a Search on Jan's forum for 'black grips' and got 29 pages of threads. :(

That tutorial on Bakelite grips would be a good addition to the FAQ here.

Perhaps someone might email or post the URL to Ed so he could negotiate with the poster to add it to this forums FAQ??? :)

I wouldn't worry about negotiating, presuming that the post was intended to be helpfully informative to the Luger collecting community. Jan's forum might be a little more formal than this one, but the overlap in membership would indicate its spirit is the same in this respect. I'd say unless it was specifically prohibited, the info/observations were meant to help all of us. And providing a link will give credit where credit is due.

But this isn't Jan's forum. An annoyed member over there might consider it plagiarism. :rolleyes:

And there are a lot of annoyed members over there... :D

EASY...Just post a link here to the tutorial on Jan's forum... with a subject line of "Link to Tutorial on Bakelite Grips"

I'm a member there, too, but infrequently visit because there's usually not enough time in a day to do so. Thus, I'm unaware of anyone that's annoyed by cross-posting or links to posts/threads there by people here. If someone is in need of soothing there, we never hear about it here. Why would anyone post good info in the spirit of helping out the community as a whole be annoyed by links to it, presumably by someone who has dual membership?:confused:

I forget which forum I'm looking at, at least twice a day.
When I can't find something I posted or read, it is always on the "other forum". ;)

I found a 'sticky' entitled Black Grips Data Request, 13 pages long... :rolleyes:

http://luger.gunboards.com/showthrea...S-DATA-REQUEST

I'm finished pg 13 and have found references to six different 'tests' for Bakelite grips... :D

OK! Jan's Forum has it all! Everything you could ask for to determine if your grips are Bakelite! :)

(1) The Hot Pin test
(2) The Hot Water test
(3) The 'Castanet'/'Clink' test
(4) The Simichrome Test
(5) The Friction/Smell Test
(6) The 409 Test

What more could anyone ask for??? :p

Yes those test will prove Bakelite for sure. Problem is there are grips out there that are not correct and not German Military that appear to be Black Widow grips and they ARE made of Backlite! Pretty easy to spot once you know what to look for and they are a bit too crude to fool anyone that studies the subject. I believe these false grips were made early post war for who knows what reason, but way too early to be an outright modern fake grip made for monetary gain. These are documented on the Jan Still Forum Black Widow grips sticky.

Please post the link for our enlightenment. :thumbup: