.45 ACP/Shanxi Type 17 Broomhandle
 

So, everyone, I was viewing one of these on Gunbroker and know there's some controversy about them (though I can't imagine the Chinese, even of that period when costs were lower, manufacturing them from scratch, new, just to sell to us!). However, I kind of want one just to add to my Webley, Luger, and Broomhandle collection because it is such an oddball (I have two of the Webley and Scott Mk I .455 Self Loading pistols so why not add another weird gun?).

Is there a good resource for information on them? I've been scouring the different boards and the internet but I find, unfortunately, far more questions than answers. I think it'd be fun to fire one a few times a year (like 3-5 shots a year at most) but mostly it's just for the oddball factor. I was just hoping to find more information as they seem to have gotten very spendy given their uncertain provenance (either original or made out of parts guns as I read somewhere, perhaps one of Alvin's erudite posts on Broomhandles!).

Michael

There are two types of Shansei Model 17 .45ACP Broomhandles on today's market: one type was made in late 1920s, another type was post 1980 reproduction. The post-1980 Shansei is more common on the market, I heard merely 300 of them were made. God knows, I have seen no fewer than 100 of them floating on the market over years. Post-1980 Shansei's situation is like Interarms Mauser Parabellum, they are not considered being pure shooters, they are collectibles too. After all, the volume is not huge. Looks to me, post-1980 Shansei's frame was cast iron, and those older Shansei made in 1920-1930 were milled from forged steel. I had a post-1980 Shansei in the past, it did not work smoothly, jammed frequently. That's the functional difference between new Shansei and new Interarms Mauser -- not only my instance had that issue, I heard other people experienced same problem. Obviously, new Shansei was made as a look-only gun. So, if you plan to shoot it occasionally, you will be disappointed. For occasional shooting, better find a Mauser or Astra 900, those in relatively good shape indeed works.

Thanks, Alvin! That's good to know. I take it you got rid of the post-1980 Shansei then? I hadn't thought of the post-1980s ones as being like the Interarms Mausers but that makes a lot of sense in terms of a collectability thing. I think one of the ones I'm looking at is one of the new ones though I'm still pondering it since the 1920s ones seem, well, extremely pricey and hard to find at a good price (though I know the adage about patience!).

I have three other Broomhandles (one shot-out but all matching, a mismatched Bolo with relined 7.63 mm bore, and a matching but 9mm conversion) so I thought I'd round out my collection with a .45 if I can get one relatively cheaply. Mostly, it'd be a display piece.

I think I could live with the jamming as it is, in some sense, a novelty with 3-5 rounds through a year at most. If I buy one that is. Thank you again!

Michael

I've got a very small collection of C96 and among them there is an original SHANSEI.
As far as I know there are more than two kind of Chinese model 1896 copies.
One sort was practically hand made and at the time it was often dangerous to shoot; in the second group is possible to find quite a mix bag of varieties, some of them carry the legend Yaku Naval Dockyard on top of the chamber, where Taku is a city in the Hopiei province of China near the river Pei, and were manufactured by an armory located there.
The third sort made in 1929 was mainly used by the police and is chambered .45ACP

Quote
"...from he serial numbers noted there must have ben over 8,000 of these made and except for their size and a slight extension of he magazine to hold 10 .45 ACP cartidges, they are quite faithful reproductions of the original. A translation of the markings inicate that they were made in the Shansei Province Arsenal in 1929. since many thousands of Model 1921 Tomson submachine gun in .45 ACP were already in use in China, it is not surprising that Chinese choose to copy the popular model 1896 Mauser in that caliber," Unquote
(from System Mauser by Breathed ans Schroeder.)

Sergio

There is one (new 1980 production, of course) listed on gunbroker.com for a while.

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=460124664

If you can talk the price down to $1500.... this one has been listed for months.

From description, I feel the seller is a very honest guy, way too honest... "Not suitable for .45ACP" -- probably this sentence in description caused this gun hanging there for long time -- but actually, all of them could have this potential issue, this seller just unnecessarily emphasized it (probably some viewer asked him?? God knows) -- the new 1980 guns were not made for shooting. It's for collecting only. Sounds like a headspace issue, that's fixable by gunsmith.

Tempting, very tempting. I never forget what a boon of information is on this forum. Thank you, Sergio and Alvin.

Sorry, I just noticed the link posted was wrong. The gun should be this one:

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=459387227

The last MSRP of this gun NIB was $850 when it's imported. Many years have passed, now it's probably $1400-$1500.

The seller could not figure out what's 11.43x26mm. The problem of this gun is definitely fixable.

Alvin, clearly you are probably one of the most well informed persons regarding the Shansei Model 17 who I've read.

I have what I must believe is one of the post 1980 examples.
I'm curious regarding your statement that the post 1980 production pieces have a cast iron frame. How did you determine this? I'm no metallurgist and I'm not going to subject mine to exhaustive or destructive testing but the frame certainly does not appear to be a cast or grey iron part. I've machined fine grain cast iron and the surface never quite looks like steel. So either the material used is tyhe finest grade iron castings I've seen in some time or they're actually a form of steel... Jerry

Jerry,

Have you ever shot yours or is it safe queen for you? I'm curious after looking at the link Alvin posted.

Michael

Alvin
Regarding the 1980 made .45 C96.Where these guns sold thru Federal Ordnance? They where based in El Monte CA?
Bob

Since my gun was sold, I have to borrow a picture to show 1980 Shansei's frame internal. Please look at this -- this is not milled, this is cast.

I heard it's Navy Arms?? The new instance was indeed made in Taiyuan, Shansei Province.

Comparing a shooter 1930 I have to the Shansei I'm still not certain it's an actual grey iron casting. Probably isn't Mauser grade steel either but that shouldn't surprise anyone.

Photos ( yes I'm doing this after New Years celebrations! ) of the inners of the Shansei - I removed the magazine latch trigger spring and of the 1930 commercial with the spring left in.

I've never fired mine. Never intended to. The bulk of my C96 collection suffers the same fate in my safe. I have only two examples that I shoot and at that rarely. Ones I built from parts, had relined and I rust re-blued. None of my core collection will I fire.

I've thought about firing the Shansei but never very seriously nor if I were to fire it probably no more than 5 shots. If it jammed or mis-fed I'd stop period. It isn't that important to me.

If Alvin's assertion is correct and the frame is cast iron I'll never fire it. won't risk breaking it.

Jerry

I can't figure it out either. :confused: A .45 ACP case is ~23mm long, not 26...OAL [w/bullet] is ~32mm...Definitely not suitable for .45 ACP, if chamber is really 11.43 x 26... :D

Are there known examples of Shansei .45's being stamped 11.43 x 26???

The two pistols I compared. The 1930 commercial is my shooter that I've worked on, it's wearing Nil grips.

The Shansei is particularly annoying to reassemble as it is difficult to get the lock work to engage the upper for reassembly. I can literally reassemble a a C96 lock work and reassemble the pistol in the dark(!) but the Shansei tests my patience.

As to the caliber discussion I'll ask Alvin: since many have said here /elsewhere and proven(?) that the large pistol isn't chambered for 45 ACP does anyone here have or has seen original ammunition for these? Or is it like the 8.15mm Mauser that to my knowledge ammunition still has yet to be found ( I do have a copy of the DWM cartridge book that shows that case). I have two C96 examples in my collection that are supposed to be chambered for the 8.15x 25mm Mauser; one a very later 1930 and the other a mismatched very unusual Mauser Banner over chamber piece

Jerry

The original cartridge for this type gun should be regular 11.43x23mm. Why did new Shansei have a 11.43x26mm chamber being a myth. Probably it's upon importer's specification, creating a chamber that no production cartridge can be fired from it -- it's marketed as a collectible, but usually people's curiosity is suppressed by cost, not by words. If many buyers ignore the warning and fire their instances, and a few were injured, the importer will be in trouble... so importer made the chamber longer. To fire it, buyer must modify the gun. If the gun is modified and it hurt the operator in range, that's not importer's responsibility anymore :) Just my guess on this weird chamber.

I fired a few collectibles, including a 6-shot. The feeling -- heartbeat rate and blood pressure increased -- like I am the target, the gun was aiming at me... especially the first shot. Luckily, nothing was broken. The gun operated flawlessly.

Damaged safety lever on a Red 9 and extractor on an Astra 900. Astra is OK because it's a mismatched gun. But that Red 9 was a little bit sorry. Safety lever is not numbered, but finding an original one in great shape is not easy. Good parts usually only found on good guns.

Boy, you sure come up with some wild ones! :roflmao:

I know. Firearm enthusiasts think from gun and ammo's angle. Nothing wrong with that. But importers are businessmen. Above analysis was from a possible business angle... Makes perfect sense because these new guns were imported as C&R collectible, importer did not want waste their hard earned money in possible injury lawsuits..

When have time, could you post pictures of this original SHANSEI? Both sides. If have grip frame internal, that will be great. Thanks!

I second Alvin's request! :thumbup:

A dedicated Shansei thread with numerous photos would be most appreciated! :cheers:

Where did this original information come from? Who determined that the chamber measure out to a 11.43x 26?

If the importer didn't want to allow people to fire them why not the more scarce 11.60x18 October Revolution? I mean any imaginary cartridge would be just as esoteric, right? Why make the chamber close enough for owners to get in trouble?? Has any of us owners made a chamber cast to confirm the caliber?

I might do one if I can find my low temp alloy.

It seems to me that if the chamber is 26mm instead of 23mm
a standard 45 acp round should never fire so what about all the accounts of firing 'tests' I've seen??

Something doesn't quite line up folks.

Jerry

It's a good point.

Even with very wrong headspace, say, 3mm longer, the gun could still fire -- the extractor holds the cartridge in place so it would not fall deep into chamber -- It will not fire reliably, but using long chamber to prevent firing definitely won't be very effective. So the theory does have a serious hole.

I've had a chance to tinker with a number of the .45s. One out of nine had proper head space; all the rest were excessive by about 1mm. They will fire, as Alvin says, by virtue of the extractor's hold on the rim of the cartridge. Correcting excessive head space is not an easy fix, but head space isnt as critical with a straight walled cartridge as one with a bottle neck.
All that said, they are a hoot to take to the range and will gather a small crowd of on-lookers. I will admit, however, to a little queasy feeling each time I press the trigger.
John

I tried inserting 7.63x25, 9x19, and 9x25 cartridge into a 7.63mm pistol, also tried inserting these three type of cartridge into a 9x25mm pistol.

The only combination that definitely won't fire is 9x25 cartridge in 7.63mm pistol because the bolt cannot close. All others.. even with wrong cartridge, they will load and fire (firing wrong cartridge will damage the gun after a few rounds -- don't try it on collectible).

For completeness, also tried inserting 7.63x25, 9x19 and 9x25 cartridge into a "Red 9" pistol. Obviously, 7.63x25 and 9x19 cartridge can be loaded and fired from it. 9x25 cartridge won't load and fire, the bolt cannot close with cartridge case protruding out so much. That would explain why there was no need to add a "9" on grip panels when 9x25mm pistol appeared in prewar era -- 9x25 cartridge won't load into 7.63mm nor 9mm pistol.

7.63mm and 9x19 cartridge could be loaded into 9x25 pistol, but it's OK to fire a relatively weaker 9x19 cartridge from a 9x25 pistol. And, how about firing 7.63mm cartridge from a 9x25mm pistol?? the feeling must like firing a pistol with "shoot-out" bore... we have experience on target impact keyholes, but the chamber pressure is OK.

The worst combination is firing 9x19mm cartridge from a 7.63mm pistol. Chamber pressure is super high. So, a big Red "9" on panels could help.

Richard & Alvin

Ok I'll try to take some pictures of my Shansei then I'll post them.

Sergio

Just to be clear - You're talking about "Mauser Export" 9mm cartridge??? The DWM #487 cartridge??? From about 1908...No relation to 9mm Parabellum or 9x21...

I have never seen one in actuality; only pictures & descriptions in COTW.

As to 9x21, I would have no problem handloading this cartridge. A cut-down 38ACP/38 Super cartridge can be made to work. Loaded to 9mm Parabellum specs & bullets. Run through 9mm "Luger" dies, bullet seated deeper to 1.173" OAL...

Some pictures here of 9x21 Artillery Luger & C96 Mauser are to my mind as good as 9x19; even better in case of Persian Artillery shown by Sergio...I wish I could have had it... :(

That's right. 9x25 Mauser Export (DWM 487). When did this cartridge appear was not clear... Julia Auction sold an engraved instance of 9x25 pistol from Sturgess collection, the pistol was supposed to be around 1904. So, I would think this powerful cartridge appeared in 1904, or slightly earlier.

But I did make a mistake. The "9x25 cartridge" in illustration was wrong. It's not 9x25, it's a much more common 9x23mm Largo cartridge (saw it longer in drawer and forgot it's 9x23, not 9x25, I don't have 9x25 ammo yet :)). But that should not change above chamber fitness. 9mm Mauser Export case is 2mm longer than 9mm Largo -- 9mm Largo cartridge does not fit 7.63mm or 9x19mm pistol, larger 9mm Mauser Export cartridge won't fit them either.

In the interest of science, I did a chamber cast of my Type 17. The face of the bolt is recessed .048"; the chamber from where the bolt would rest (see dark line) to the mouth of the cartridge is .860 for a total of .908". The diameter of the chamber immediately forward of the extractor cut is .482" and at the mouth .474-.475".
My Speer #9 manual shows the 45acp cartridge length as .898; the diameter at the mouth of .473" and at the web of .476". So on my gun at least, the chamber is reasonable for a military weapon. I've seen others that would swallow a No-Go gauge and still have a 1/16th inch gap between the bolt and cartridge head.
I put a C96 Wolff spring kit, a new extractor, and a modern, heat treated bolt stop on my Type 17. For the 20 or so rounds I fire per year, the gun seems to be holding up just fine.
John

I've never done a chamber cast...But where did you get your modern heat treated bolt stop??? :)

Are those the bolt stops from KB Tactical? I've a few from them on my 7.63 Brooms and my one 9mm Broom. I'm still going to have to think about a Shansei broom. I got offered a pre-war commercial with original rifling for $800 (with 2 boxes of ammo, cleaning tool, and three stripper clips) and a few Lugers so...there goes my Christmas money (figuratively).

The bolt stop was made by a local machinist. He's tackled some strange projects for me. Michael, that commercial C96, sounds like too good a deal to pass up.
John

Good Evening,

While reading an article about a .45 Luger Carbine on the other board, I came across mention of the early production of a .45 cartridge by the Frankford Arsenal that was " 1mm" longer - the .45 F.A. 4-06. It seems that of the 10,000 or so rounds produced, about half ended up in Germany and about half of those are unaccounted for.

So, there seems to be some basis for the existence of a longer .45 auto cartridge.

John

The caliber of .45ACP broomhandle definitely needs more study. There was a background. Original Shansei C96 was made by a warlord arsenal (in Shansei, of course). The warlord was a regiment commander in Qing Dynasty (1644-1912), setup his 'kingdom' in warlord years, lost Shansei province in 1949 and fled to Taiwan, finally died there. Many warlord power of the period did not survive that long, but he did. There was something special about this man. For example, the railway he built was narrower than standard. It was done intentionally. Probably learned from Russian.

The arsenal made C96 was not small. Taiyuan Arsenal was one of the three bigger arsenals in China at that time. They also made lots of Thompson-like 11.43mm submachine guns. In warlord years, warlords did not save money on guns, 80% of budget could be spent on weapons (otherwise, how could poor Chinese buy so many expensive Broomhandles at that time :)) Owning an arsenal making guns and ammo, was like having a hen that could lay gold eggs. Not only the products could arm his own troops, guns and ammo could be sold or given to other warlords in alliance. But who knows... today's comrades could be tomorrow's enemies, that's especially true among warlords, "how to prevent today's comrades from hitting me in future using my guns".... say, a special cartridge was designed, and there was no other supply except Shansei, that's not impossible in this background and in this man's personality. So, in case of need, just cut that special ammo supply, even if enemy had his guns, those guns would be useless, nowhere else to find supply of this special ammo.

But this cannot be verified by looking at 1980s imports. Original Shansei samples must be studied. I have never gotten one. Write down an item on note book, for future.

Anyone has original Shansei?

Isnt identifying which of the Shanxis are original, ie. late 1920's, part of the problem ? What are the characteristics of the "modern" ones that distinguish them from the "originals"?

I have heard the proprietary cartridge idea that Alvin mentions from other sources. It sounds plausible to me.
John

Original Shansei has a few characteristics:

1) It is a 10% or, at most a 20% gun;
2) Bore must NOT be excellent. Warlord arsenal did not have technology to make non-corrosive ammo. And, Chinese were not collectors. No "Safe Queen".
2) It has no importer stamp;
3) Grip panels must be worn, and the grip screw head is on the right side (reverse of Mauser); and
4) All steel parts are milled.

The one below belonged to a gunshop and has just been sold, but the picture still appears on the gunshop site, I've noticed that the grip screw head is on the wrong side, does it means that is a 1980 copy?

Sergio

Sergio, that one looks a lot like mine. Rust blued finish in fairly decent condition, deep pitting under the grip panels, and a nice, frosty bore. The internal parts are well finished. In tiny print, its stamped: "N. A. Co., Ridgewood NJ" (2 lines) on the front grip strap and "Cal. 45 ACP" on the rear grip strap. Probably a 'Navy Arms Special', if all the production went into service and none were stored in an armory, as you say Alvin. The poor condition of the regular C96s I've seen that are reportedly from China, certainly supports your thinking.
Of the 11 Shanxi I've seen, all had serial numbers under 2000. That always struck me as odd.
I've seen an article that asserts there is a difference in the Chinese stampings. I'll see if I can find it.
See ya,
John

Yes, a good read -

http://www.sightm1911.com/lib/histor...ge_History.htm