Odd BBLs From Numrich
 

...on eBay 08/21/2014...

A 6 1/4" 30 cal bbl and an 8" 30 cal bbl...

But no threads and no front sight base... :confused:

I suppose if you're into sweating/soldering a front sight base on after cutting the thread, then these would be good deals...At a reasonable price... :rolleyes:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Luger-P-08-S...-/400755984567

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Luger-P-08-S...-/400755985122

Ignore the "Mauser" in the auction title; Numrich admits it is a mistake...

Kind of a strange way to make a replacement barrel... :eek: If you're going to the trouble of turning the taper and the shoulder, and chambering it, but not machine the front sight base, why not thread it??? It doesn't matter where the barrel indexes, there's no front sight, no feed ramp, and no extractor cut...

Edit: I put a bid on the 6 1/4" bbl...Just for S&G... :D

I posted this here because it is actually a kind of clever way to sell barrel blanks...You have to cut the threads before you can index the front sight ramp/blade, so they leave the front sight band round...

You cuts you threads, torques you barrel down, and then solders you front sight base on...And install you blade... :p

It's not how I would do it...Or even suggest it be done...FWIW, I would thread the front band as well and screw on a cut-off Luger front band/base/blade (internally threaded) indexed to line up correctly...Probably with a setscrew in the dovetail to hold it in place... :thumbup:

As sold, this is exactly what makes a gunsmith's heart sink when he sees a customer carrying a box into the shop... :crying:

I have seen a ARI rebareled in 30 mauser : it works nicely and the cartridges goes in the mag , but if I remember only 5 or 6

I don't know what an ARI is, but Numrich acknowledged the caliber mistake - it's 30 Luger... :thumbup:

On Aug-21-14 at 06:33:11 PDT, seller added the following information:

PLEASE NOTE: Correction------This is .30 Luger caliber not Mauser!

ARI is European for Artillery (LP08). :)

...And it stands for...???... :confused:

Well, if you wanted, you could deepen the chamber of these to make them 30 Mauser... :rolleyes:

Edit: I would guess it would take a lot of grinding/milling/filing to get 30 Mauser cartridges (full length) to feed anywhere near reliably...Frame as well as magazine follower modification...

Single shot maybe, pushing cartridges in by hand from the top...With a reduced load...

I imagine firing surplus 'military' 30 Mauser in a re-chambered Luger would have similar effect to firing 30 cal Tokarev cartridges in a C96 Mauser...But more so...

Maybe if you had 30 cal wadcutters, seated to an OAL of ~1.360" in the Mauser cases...

Maybe they are rejects. QC caught them right before they were threaded, and they were sold as metal scrap to Numrich. I get that feeling sometimes when I order from Numrich. :rolleyes:

Just sent a S&W revolver hammer back to them. It was case hardened, but covered in rust and pits under the grease they shipped it in.

If so, why turn the front sight band round??? Just scrap 'em... :rolleyes:

There's no note about "More than one available"...Maybe a CNC test of each length that the coder forgot the sight band base???

I have bought 'scrap' from Numrich. S&W had a run of SS 659 slides that had been finished machined, but the roll-stamping was off, so S&W sheared them in half and Numrich sold the halves. I bought several and made long-slide [5" bbl] 659's out of them. :)

Well, the auctions are over. The 6 1/4" barrel was bought by "someone" [coff, coff] for $42; the 8" went for $31.

I'd say these prices are very good, as it would cost me in time more to machine these to this level of completion than my last employer paid me...IOW, more than two hours... :rolleyes:

I knew you wouldn't be able to resist. :D

I git the 6 1/4" barrel in from Numrich today...I'm somewhat disappointed...

It may not be readily apparent, but the taper is quite 'fat' up where the shoulder is...More so than a 9mm or 7.65mm [100mm/98mm] barrel [first pic comparing 98mm/7.65 barrel to Numrich]...

The Numrich barrel measures .710" at a point 5/16" forward of the receiver flange surface...The Luger 7.65 barrel measues .620" at the same point...

I tapered a home-made 9mm barrel using 7.65 dimension at the barrel band and the point 5/16" from the receiver flange surface (IOW, a stretched 7.65mm taper)...That's it [second pic] compared to the Numrich barrel...

While my homemade tapered & stretched barrel is no show winner, IMHO the profile is much more esthetic than the Numrich barrel...

I don't see why the Numrich barrel was made so 'fat' at the rear...

The 7.65 Numrich chamber is 'sloppier' than my Clymer-reamed barrels...Lot more 'wiggle'...Thread stub is right-on in length and diameter...Bore looks OK...

Flange/shoulder is artillery thickness; not 98/100mm thickness...Numrich front sight band diameter is .008" greater; flange dia is .020" greater; end of taper in front is .018" less...

The dimensions on the Numrich barrel don't equate to anything I have here...In 7.65 or 9mm...Even the 6 1/4" OAL length is odd...

I suspect I'll probably end up re-tapering it...So that it has a 'stretched 7.65 barrel' taper, like my barrel in 2nd pic...

Another Numrich mystery... :rolleyes:

Another Numrich mystery for sure...

Whatever it is, I guess it's still better than starting with a blank. The chamber is a bummer though. Is there enough meat on the flange to cut back, so you can deepen the chamber?

It was cheap enough to be worth a shot. It beats having to cut away all that steel to get down to the profile I want. It'll just be 5 or 6 taper cuts now. ;)

I won't bother. It may well be within tolerances, especially for military use. Clymer reamers are typically .002" over SAAMI case dimensions. That's way under specs for military. I don't really have any way to measure this chamber directly. No matter. I won't be shooting hot loads. :rolleyes:

Rich, I don't understand how you can be sure of the threading. This is where my stupidity comes out I know. Surely you don't thread these by hand with a lathe?

Second question
If you have an old barrel with messed up threads, are there such things as a thread fixer? Like the type I have for small threads that are screwed up?

Ed

Hi Ed
Threading them on his lathe by hand is exactly what he is doing. And it is the only way to get the threads concentric with the bore. It isn't rocket surgery ;). All it takes is the tools and appropriate instruction and practice of which he obviously has both. There are even videos on YouTube where you can see how simple (but tedious) a process it is. I am sure he could create a thread chaser (die) if he needs one but I am pretty sure they aren't available commercially for Luger barrel threads.

Yes, as John noted, I cut the threads on a lathe, feeding the 60º thread cutting tool bit in one thousandth at a time, until I get close then I switch to 1/2 thousandth. My tool post is set up at 60º also; that is what I feed in by hand (in thousandths). My table feed is set to the thread pitch, and chuck/spindle speed is lowest I can go.

I don't know if anyone makes a Luger barrel thread die or tap. In any event, trying to thread a barrel with a die wouldn't get it concentric with the bore, as John commented.

I have pics of the threading process before & after, but I can't take pics while threading. I need both hands free to throw the appropriate levers to stop the feed and retract the cutting bit at the end of the cut. :)

"Thread fixer"...Like a thread file? Yes, I have a 20tpi thread file, like for taking dents out of a thread if you were to drop it or something. But if it's serious, like a Luger barrel I had that was soldered to take up gap, then I turn it in the lathe. And/or 'pick up the thread' and re-cut it.

I do thread these on a lathe... :)

Here's the receiver end of the barrel being threaded, ~.704" x 20 tpi... :)

I've also re-tapered the 'fat' taper...

Next will be threading the muzzle end...I'm still deciding whether to make a threaded front sight base + band or saw off an old Luger front sight base/band and thread it... :confused:

I thinned the big end of the taper down about .085" off the OD; left the front sight band end alone. It looks a bit better. Here's a comparison of before & after -

A member pointed out to me that a 4" Luger front sight band + base would be too short for a 6" 'Navy' style barrel...So I guess I'll be making one from scratch... :(

I looked at Ed Tinker's albums, and Ed has a Navy pictured -

http://forum.lugerforum.com/picture....4&pictureid=71

Unfortunately, Ed sold it. I can try to extrapolate the front sight base height from the pic...But if anyone has a Navy (or a repro) they could measure, it would make it easier! :)

Thank You! :D

In the meantime, I'm working on the front sight base/band blank... ;)

Continuing to mill the screw-on front sight band + base...

Rich, I don't have any references with me in this new work location, but I do recall that the front sight base for a Navy is approximately 0.10 INCHES taller...

John, those LP-08 prints I mailed to you show the Artillery front sight base height - Do you know if the Navy is the same??? :confused:

I'm thinking of making my own rear toggle-mounted sight, so my actual front sight base height may be altogether different anyway... :rolleyes:

Sorry Rich, the 0.10 inch measurement increase (from memory) is the best info I have available, but my best guess is that the Navy and Artillery do NOT have the same height front sight base.... but of course, I have been wrong before!

Perhaps someone who owns a Navy Luger can use a digital caliper and measure the distance from the bottom of the barrel to the flat top of the front sight base and post it in this thread...

...and while that "someone" is at it, someone (even the same person) could do the same with a standard 4" barrel so (and we) would all know the difference in height....

Here's a partial screengrab of the P-08 and LP-08 front sight bases...Measurements are from the centerline for base height...

Ok... according to the prints the top of the front sight base on a standard P.08 is 10mm from the bore centerline. On the artillery model print, the distance is 10.4mm plus 1.6mm or 12mm. That 2mm difference is 0.0787402 inches.

I would recommend you go with 2.5 to 3mm higher than the standard and then determine your requirements by using temporary front sights (a headless stud filed flat on top inserted into a threaded hole in the front sight base that will be covered by the sight dovetail) to experiment and find the point of impact. Once you know the ballpark for the front sight height, it will be a lot easier to extrapolate the correct base height for your custom barrel...

I enlarged Ed's Navy pic to life-size, confirmed that the front sight base band was 15mm and got a measurement of 5mm for the sight base height, measured from the band...

That would make it 12.5mm from the bore centerline...Compared to the 12mm LP-08 print dimension...Approximately... :p

Not very scientific, but there is a dearth of Navy Lugers to measure... :rolleyes:

BTW: Both P-08 and LP-08 show a 15mm diameter front sight base band measurement...

The blade height is not terribly important, as I make my blades equal to the rear sight height. In this case, I haven't decided on a rear sight...Micro seems to be OOB... :confused:

I'd just like the front sight base height to be similar in profile to the 6" Navy barrel base... :)

Sheepherder, is this gonna be a custom target luger?

No. Just an exercise in machining techniques.

Edit: I do have a spare rear toggle. I'm thinking of installing an adjustable rear sight [think Micro] in an enclosure inletted & screwed to the toggle. It will be much wider than a Navy sight but hopefully the 'ears' of the enclosure will resemble the Navy in profile. Instead of a button there will be a hole for the windage adjustment. Looking at suitable sights now.

Since I have plenty of Navy lugers I measured a half dozen of my P.04s and came up with a 15mm diameter of the base band and 19.5mm from the bottom of the band to the top of the flat. Subtracting half the diameter (7.5) that makes it 12mm from centerline to the top of the flat. I measured my only lP08 and got the same result, which matches the lP08 drawing.

Putting my P.04s nose to nose with the lP08 confirms they have the same base height for the front sight.

Now for the interesting part: I have two P.08s. One is a mint 1918 Army P.08 and the other one is a rare Navy contract P.08 from the Navy's 1913 contract for 150 P.08 from DWM.

Both P.08s have the same 15mm band diameter as my lP08 and P.04s. However, they both are 17mm from the bottom of the band to the top of the flat. That translates to 9.5mm from the center to the top of the flat, not 10mm as shown on the print!!

Thanks Mike! :thumbup:

ARGH!!! :grr: I got the front sight band milled down to .630" dia rough cuts with the 3/8" end mill [shown below], and I can't find my 1/8" long flute end mill!!! :banghead:

I had to order a new one. Take a couple days to get here. :soapbox:

If you look at the pic of the rotary indexing head in pic # 32 above, you'll notice little shims between the jaws and the M16 barrel stub I'm using as a mandrel. That's because the M16 barrel OD is not concentric with the bore. I have a small 3-jaw chuck that is centered on the indexing head, but that gets thrown all out of whack with an eccentric workpiece. :banghead:

The stub was .012" off center. Trying to figure out how much shimming is needed at the two 'low' jaws to get it centered is a royal PITA. I spent an hour one night and another hour the next morning and finally got it within .002". I decided that was 'close enough'. :mad:

I just got in a small 4-jaw chuck for the indexing head (I have a 6" 4-jaw for the lathe) that will make this job much easier/quicker in the future. Lot easier when the other jaws aren't moving when you shim one of them. :thumbup:

Got the 4-jaw indexing head chuck mounted - works great! (Pic didn't turn out). :( Completed rotary milling the front sight band with 1/8" long end mill.

Faced off muzzle, cut crown. Mounted front sight band on barrel; mounted barrel on barrel extension ['receiver'] for pics. Also made up a special 'keyhole' spanner for mounting/removing the front sight band. Thread is 1/2" x 28tpi, same as M16/AR-15 barrel/flash hider. :)

Hard to photograph bright shiny objects in the shop. :banghead:

Rich,

What kind of tool do you use for the crown? I have tried to grind HSS bits for crowning and other chamfering operations, but have never really been able to come up with anything that makes a clean, chatter free cut.

Brownell's sells a curved lathe tool bit that isn't too bad for a curved tube end. I have 30º/45º/60º 'chamfering cutters' [countersinks] that I use to break the sharp bore edge and blend in the lands & grooves. (I also have tried them for cutting feed ramps; they work pretty well for that too). I'm pretty slack on 'rounding off' the end of thin barrels. The flat squared-off end looks pretty nice to me. :)

Edit: I just realized which barrel this is. Since it has a threaded-on front sight base, it's not rounded at all. I left it 'squared' and just broke the sharp bore edges with a 45º chamfering tool.

I looked at Brownell's cutter, and the complex grinding explains why I haven't been able to make one... :banghead: I haven't had much luck with countersinks of any kind, they just shatter at any RPM. My only salvation is a crowning tool set (also from Brownells), but I would like to come up with something that works in the lathe... I hate to buy tools I can make, so I might try and grind a short miniature boring bar before I cave in and order the cutter.

I run at low RPM (like 160rpm I think) and use 5 or 6 flute 'chamfering cutters' from Travers. I have never had a chamfering cutter/countersink shatter. (You can't use woodworking countersinks). I turn the barrel in the lathe chuck and use a Jacob's chuck in my tailstock to feed the 'chamfering cutter' in. I eyeball it until the groove is cut to the bottom.

I've seen multi-angle crowns, rebated crowns, and odd angle crowns but really, is all that necessary??? I'm a simple person, my tools are simple, my work is as simple as I can make it. ;)

An unexpected occurrence... :eek:

The 'winner' of the auction for the 8" Numrich barrel offered the barrel to me, and of course I accepted. :thumbup:

Now I'm somewhat at a loss...It's 30 cal, and I don't have a 30 cal artillery Luger, so I could go that way (I have a cut-down Luger artillery barrel with intact rear sight base that I could bore out and sleeve over the Numrich barrel)...Or I could use it to make a 30 cal Walther 'artillery P-38'... :evilgrin:

I bought two 30 cal 'pulls' to use for 30 cal barrel replacements [Win M-70 & Rem M700] so I don't really need to use it for a 'blank'...

I already have a 13" 30 cal barrel ready to turn into a Luger 'Buntline', so I don't need it for that...

I've kind of run out of WW II pistols to turn into artillery whatevers...

How best to make use of this windfall???... :confused:

Continuing with the 6" 30 cal barrel...To the rear! :thumbup:

This will hopefully be the last 2-cut extractor notch I do; I'm going to try grinding an oversize Woodruff keyway cutter to Luger dimensions... :rolleyes:

This is the second time I've cut the feed ramp this way, and I'm delighted at how nice it comes out... :)

While I had all the tools, cutters, fixtures, and notes out and still firmly fixed in my mind, I did a 2nd 6 inch 30 cal Luger barrel extractor notch and feed ramp...

I have a 3rd 6 inch barrel in 9mm that needs notching & ramping, but enough of the pics... :rolleyes:

I'm starting to get the hang of it now... :thumbup: