First luger! 1920 DWM
 

Hi everyone! Long time reader, first time poster! Finally came into a luger for a good price, and was wanting some opinions and info if I could! It seems to be a 1920 DWM in 9mm. Seems to be all matching, even firing pin, but I notice the barrel itself has the numbers 803 underneath, while the receiver and everything else on the barrel has the serial that matches everything else (1574). Does anyone know why or what that number is for? Also, upon inspection, I found 2 eagle and swastika stamps on right side of receiver, one on the receiver, other above trigger. Also didn't know if someone could shine some light on it. It also has a different eagle stamp on the top of the barrel, kind of in the middle. It has the original finish, some pitting on the right side of receiver. Came with aluminum mag but no numbers, and a black mag that seems to be a newer one, along with what looks to be the original cleaning rod and oiler combo. Interesting as well is the box it's in. It seems to be handmade, and has some sort of felt like interior. It's got what looks to be old type round head flat head screws so I believe it's old. Perhaps vet bring back and he made it for the gun to display? From the condition I would guess so. Thanks for any info!! Sorry for the long winded description. I'll post some pics of what it looked like before I cleaned it and after (quite dirty). At work now so I'll include some better ones later! First pic is after I cleaned it and it's in the box. Others were when I first saw it. (It looks SO much better now)

If you look closely at the numbers on the bottom of the barrel, they will be 8,08, and not 8,03. That number is the bore measurement, and should be there.

Oh okay thanks!! Makes sense, that's what I thought it was but it looks just like a 3, perhaps it's worn. Anything else you may be able to tell me about it? Collectible? Shooter? I'm trying to determine what exactly it was a part of, whether police, military, or whatnot. I would love to know all i can about it. I notice the grips didn't have a number either. Definitely old tho. I was hoping to have a matching gun!

Richard, I believe you have transposed a couple of digits... The bore diameter would be 8,8X where the "X" is digit from 1 to 5 which is within bore diameter tolerances on the Luger blueprints. In this case, if the last digit is really a "3" then the actual bore diameter is 8,83mm.

Hmm I wonder what they are then...

Like he said.

Oops, sorry, using my phone and didn't get whole reply. That would make more sense. I just didn't know if lugers had serials there or not. Glad to know that though. I think it'll be a good first luger! Going to shoot tomorrow.

Looking at the info on this site, the eagle/swastika combo is a Mauser military proof. Can anyone explain why they put it on the DWM? Or is the symbol something else altogether placed there by another entity? I'd like to learn as much as I can, perhaps when I get home more pics will help..

To get much help with markings, and to get an estimate of finish and whether parts are appropriate, you'll need to post pictures that show more detail.

Try taking them outside, in shaded natural light. Do not use flash. Use a tripod, a plain neutral background and the closeup feature on a digital camera. Don't use a phone camera. Use the self timer on the camera to eliminate camera shake.

Late marks may be there because the part was replaced, or some rework was done. Mauser started manufacturing Lugers after 1933 when the DWM tooling and some of the staff was relocated to Oberndorf.

Marc

Hi,

I think I can see a chamber date on the receiver. What is it?

Frankly, this smells like a Weimar military to me, that was later used by the Nazis.


Sieger

Chamber date is 1920

Is that a plus for collectibility?? About to take some pics. Hopefully they turn out good.

Hi,

It's a bit hard to tell from the photo, but is that a sear safety I see on top of the sideplate?


Sieger

Sideplate is unnumbered or commercial with a sear safety cut, but I don't see a corresponding hole drilled in the upper receiver. This would make the sideplate a later addition and not original to the gun.

Yes upon taking off the sideplate, it seems to have the number 51 inside it. Perhaps when it was used for military they rearsenaled it in a way? Taking pics now!

Also, how could you tell? Where would the side plate be cut at?

Sear Safety Cut in the Sideplate
 

The arrow indicates the rectangular cut in the top of the sideplate where the sear safety pin would immobilize the sear when active.

Since the gun does not have a rivet hole in the upper receiver where the sear safety would be installed, this could not have been a Police model Luger. Just a Luger with a replaced (non-matching) sideplate. The number on the inside of the sideplate is an indicator that this sideplate was of Mauser manufacture, and they didn't start Luger production until the 1930's.

Oh I see. But wouldn't have been either military or police being that it is a 9mm with the date of 1920? It's my understanding that 9mm 1920 lugers were illegal commercially. Since it has the Mauser sideplate, and Mauser nazi proof stamps on both receiver and frame, along with eagle on barrel, could this luger perhaps been rearsenaled at a Mauser facility for the war? Just wondering. I'm becoming confused! So much history and information! :)

Yes, of course you are correct. This brain of mine seems to take a vacation from time to time. Thank you for supplying the OP with the correct info.

That's a bit of wishful thinking. We still have not established that the proof you believe is a nazi era addition is in fact that. You need to provide some clear, close-up photos to make that determination.

Any sideplate replaced in an arsenal or depot would have been numbered to match. This sideplate came from elsewhare and was added to the gun sometime after manufacture.

So far we know that it is a late DWM, post WW1 military pistol that may or may not have been reissued by the nazis and has a replaced sideplate.

Okay awesome. I'm gonna post pics asap. Having computer issues at the moment :-/

I can't be sure but the 1920 looks more like the 1920 government property stamp than the manufacture date. The markings on the right side of the receiver should help determine if it is really a manufacture date.

hey guys. really sorry it took so long to get these photos. ended up having to get a whole new computer as the one i was using crapped out on me. finally, without further a due....the pics everyone requested. maybe someone can help me make since of all these marking and such! someone told me in town it was fake and then offered to buy it.....haha. another guy told me it could be a commercial that was reworked for military use. not sure. but here you go! thanks for everything guys, i appreciate it! you can see the stamp on the receiver in one of the pics.

Based on the new photos I would agree with Don that the 1920 is a property stamp and not a chamber date. The nazi proof you mention, to my eyes, just looks like pitting that ended up looking somewhat like a nazi waffenampt.
Also, nobody has mentioned the cleaning rod-oiler from your first photo. If authentic, that alone is worth a couple hundred bucks.

It also looks as if your takedown lever has been bent up a bit. Possibly at one point either do to improper knowledge on a persons part with the takedown operation or it was bent to help with fitting the different side plate.

No the proof stamp is real. Hard to get a pic of. It's upside down which is weird. But it's there. Isn't it odd tho it has commercial emblems and the property stamp? I'll try to get a better pic with my mag glass. I can't make out numbers underneath.

I'll get a better pic of cleaning rod. The end is an oiler, pretty neat. It's all wrapped up in a very old rag.

Also has the imperial eagle on the barrel. Just odd to me it has conflicting emblems it seems. Unless it's common...I don't know much lol

Take a close up picture with a high resolution digital camera, not an I-potato (phone). Cell phone cameras suck.

It's looking like the "proof mark" may be very similar to the one I've posted below, which is a Nazi-era Hza proof of a depot-level rework. Your photo is actually pretty decent, but for positive ID, you need to get a good, sharp, close-up image. The higher the resolution, the better, so that one can 'zoom in', and really get a good look. My photo below was taken with a 14.1 megapixel digital camera. My photos are only 'OK', at best, but they serve the purpose!

Here is an example of what you need to do:

Okay, here is another pic of the stamp.
unfortunately i do not own a camera besides the one on my phone. i tried to take as best a pic as i could though. it was a very large picture and i re-sized it down trying not to lose the definition. let me know what yall think. thanks!

That pic is better. I can definitely tell that it appears to be a Nazi-era depot proof. Can you use a magnifying glass or a jewelers' loupe and make out the letters and numbers that are in the arc below (what's presumably) the swastika?

It does look remarkably like an Hza firing proof, like on my example I posted. The primary caveat here being that I am far from being "an expert". Just another interested collector!:thumbup:

Haha thanks! I'll see if I can find one. My next question is I guess, how much would this gun be worth? If the oiler was original as well. Bout to upload a pic of it. Just wish I could learn a little more about it. I don't understand the commercial stamps along with government property stamps..

I was told today, this could be a rare "commercial military" luger. Said they read on them in a world of lugers book or something. Anyone heard of this?

The "Commercial Military" Luger variation is a relatively scarce item, but it is WWI vintage and bears unique triple Crown/X proofs. Your Luger is not one of these.

Well did the normally reissue commercial lugers for military use?

We need more detailed pics, with close-ups of every external marking for a definitive ID.

My suggestion for you is to go to your local pawnshop and pick up a used digital camera ($50 to $75), so you can get some better pics!

It's almost impossible to make a positive ID on a non-obvious pistol such as yours with only a few I-potato (cell phone) pics to go by!

ETA: I can't (and probably not even the experts here) tell if your pistol is a rework or just a parts gun at this point. Could mean the difference between a "shooter" worth $700, or a collectible with some 'history' worth $1200!

ETA2: At any rate, you seem to have gotten some cool accessories along with your luger!

ETA3: After taking a closer look at your earlier pics, and based on the Hza-type proof, this gun *may be* a Nazi-era rework. That's my best guess at this point. Please don't assume my tentative ID is anything close to definitive. Again, I'm just another interested collector, and far from being an "expert". Perhaps with some more photos, the true experts may chime in with some more authoritative information.

Ron, not all commercial/military Lugers have the triple C/X acceptances. See http://forum.lugerforum.com/showthread.php?t=32016.

Okay. Girlfriend just told me she had a good canon camera in her trunk, gonna take some pics and post guys!

Looking forward to photos, thanks; but in the meantime ... congratulations!

Chris

It is a commercial that went into military, perhaps even police service. Not rare, just a variation and although a bit uncommon there are others like it.

I think it was a police that never received a sear or mag safety, many of them were purchased as commercial and then placed into service.

Looks like a Portuguese oiler, worth $100-$125 / sometimes more, but not a lot more...