Interesting Powder for 9mm Luger
 

While browsing through my 1979 Speer Reloading Manual, I noticed this interesting note in the section listing powders based on their burning rate, from fastest to slowest...

Hi,

I've tested Blue Dot extensively.

For me, and many do not share my opinion, you have to load Blue Dot too hot to get any accuracy out of it in a 4 inch barreled, P-08, Luger. Also, the muzzle flash is like that of a flare pistol.

I've had some pretty good success with it in an 8 inch barreled, LP-08, however; as it is the second most accurate powder, with this pistol, to date.

Though it is not one of my go to powders for the 9mm Luger, in a Browning design pistol, such as the Browning Hi-Power, it might be just great.

Your thoughts?


Sieger

I've been reloading for many years especially 45 ACP, 40 S&W, 9X21 IMI, 38 Spl, and 308 Winch.,
In the past I often used Vihtavuori 320, 310, and I think one of my mates of the range uses the WW 231 Recently I use Cheddite granular as it's a lot cheaper.

Just out of curiosity I wonder why nobody of you seem to use Vihtavuori gun powder.

Vihtavuori was not available locally, way back when you could actually buy powder. :rolleyes:

If I had my druthers, I'd buy a pound or two of W231. It seems to be the 'broad spectrum' powder for the pistols I reload for (bullet makers all have loads for it).

In the past, I would settle on a specific bullet and then try different powders, different charges, until I hit on the 'sweet spot' for that pistol. Now, I just want a load/bullet that will cycle the action. My days of 'Expert Marksman' badges are over. I don't even care about the 10-ring anymore. Hitting paper is good enough. :thumbup:

In my part of the Country, Vihtavouri Powder was not always easy to find even back when all powder was readily available. When you did find it, it was usually twice the price of the "standard" USA powders. Folks that were shooting a lot(1K rounds/month) were not interested due to the higher price. There are some handloaders that rave about it....I have no experience with it.

Blue Dot has a spotty reputation. I've read more complaints about it than any other powder.

I was somewhat skeptical of the Blue Dot loads that Speer recommended for the 9mm Luger cartridge in their 1987 manual. So I measured out a couple loads and poured them in a 9mm case. Here's what Speer recommends as max loads of Blue Dot for -

95gr FMJ bullet = 9.8gr Blue Dot

115gr FMJ bullet = 8.9gr Blue Dot

Here's my cases...With weighed loads...[pic attached]...

When the Freedom Arms 454 Casull first came out, I bought one of the 'field grade' 8 3/8" bbl stainless revolvers. One of the recommended handloads used a compressed charge of two different powders, layered not mixed. (There was no powder available at that time that would give the energy/velocity that FA advertised). It was pretty scary to shoot, and 'bone jarring' is an understatement. :rolleyes:

I imagine these loads that Speer recommends for the 9mm Luger cartridge would be scary, and bone jarring, too... :p

Blue Dot is superb in 357Sig at or near max loadings. Extremely accurate with excellent velocity. The flash/bang is also very impressive, especially if you are shooting at an indoor range with a short barreled handgun. I wear ear plugs and muffs for those occasions!!


Loading BD at mid range loads will usually always shoot dirty with a lot of unburned powder. Sort of like 2400 loaded light in 44 Mag. brass. They are both magnum powders like H110, but not as tricky.

Different "Dot"
 

I've used Green Dot for years in 9mm, .40 S&W, and .45 ACP. All loads have achieved good accuracy and soft recoil. KW

I love Green Dot. I use it in .41 Mag, .44 Spec. and .45 ACP.. Extremely accurate and very economical compared to some other powders.

Hmmmmm...I did a Search; there does seem to be a lot of threads with Blue Dot in them...Quite a few before my time here...

There was one comment that made me laugh...That there's no possibility of double-charging with Blue Dot... :D :roflmao: :p

Hi,

To me, these loads are DANGEROUSLY HOT, and shouldn't even be listed here, less someone actually try to load them!!!

Sieger

Yes, specifically 9mm Luger cartridges. It was in this thread, post #3 -

http://forum.lugerforum.com/showthread.php?t=17722

I don't recognize the member, but he specifically states that his loads (not the maximum ones Speer lists) functioned 100% in his Lugers. The Speer handbook cites the Beretta 92SB as the test pistol for these loadings, not the P-08 Luger.

Hi,

Just about any pistol powder can be made to function a Luger. The real question is: which one will provide the most accurate, most powerful (within the original specs. of 123 grain bullet at 1,076 fps) and most consistent handloads?

Blue Dot, simply, will not do that for me in a 4 inch barreled Luger.

If you value your Luger, please do not attempt to shoot +P or +P+ loads of any kind through it, as it was not designed to handle them and they will, eventually wreck your pistol!!!


Sieger

Blue Dot is my favorite powder for use in the 9mm Para. In my guns it gives superb accuracy and reliability, the best of any powder that I have tried across the wide spectrum of 9mm's that I own and shoot. The only negative that I've found is that it can have a noticeable muzzle flash, but it doesn't bother me while shooting. Its' slower burning rate seems to give a recoil impulse that allows it to function extremely well, and absolutely no chance of a double charge...

The 8.9 grain load with 115 grain bullet is far too hot for use in a luger (I have used 8.8 grains with a 115 grain bullet in my Sigs and Glocks without a problem, but it really is a +P load with velocities about 1,300 fps.). Particular attention needs to be paid to the overall loaded length of the cartridge, as seating the bullet deeper will raise pressures.

My current shooting loads that have proven to work well in my lugers is 7.5 grains of Blue Dot with either a 115 grain or 124 grain bullet, with an overall cartrige length of 1.169 inches (some hollow point bullets have to be loaded slightly shorter to give an equivalent functioning length equal to 1.169). The 115 grain load produces approx. 1,150 fps, and the 124 grain load approx. 1,080 fps out of my Sig 226's. They function very reliably in my lugers and other 9mm pistols. In several of my lugers they will produce 5 shot groups at 25 yards that run right at 1 inch. In my Browning Hi-Power GP Comp they will shoot groups under 3/4" at 25 yards. I haven't found any other powder that would do as well in my guns.

I know that others may not get the same results with Blue Dot that I have found, but I do know it performs extremely well for me in my loading and I'm very happy with it.... :) My 2 cents...

Hi,

Your accurate 7.5 gr load for the 124 gr bullet makes sense, as when my Luger started showing signs of pressure at 7.2 grains, the groups had just started tightening. I wouldn't go higher than 7.2, again, because of the pressure. The springs in your Luger may have allowed for your 7.5 gr. load, however.

In a Browning High-Power, perhaps, these hotter loads could be shot quite comfortably.

Sieger

For tight groups, try some Power Pistol at about 5.4 gr., as I think you will like it.

Sieger,

Thanks for the Power Pistol load suggestion. I'll put it in my list of loads to try. It is always nice to get suggested loads that have been shown to work well.

The 7.5 grains of Blue Dot with a 124 grain bullet isn't a warm load at all. Blue Dot is a slow powder and that load only produces 1,080 fps (chronographed out of one of my Sig 226's). It's really just a standard pressure load. I've loaded 8 grains (not for a luger) and it's still a standard pressure load. It does depend on what bullet you are using and what seatting depth.

Thanks again!!!!!!!!!!

Blue dot is excellent carbine/SMG 9mm powder. You can get some smoking velocities out of a 10"-16" barrel.

This all depends on which reloading manual you are using. In Lyman's 49th, your 7.5gr of BD load is over max load for 124gr FMJ. If you are using Speer Manual, then you are loading in the "middle of the road".

On loads like this, I usually try to get 3-4 different manuals for the powder and the bullet, and sort of extrapolate where I want to start developing the load, and what I consider the max loading. We all do things our own way, but being safe is paramount to me.

You have to pay careful attention to the overall loaded length. Some of the manuals have bullets seated extremely deeply, and typically they show much lighter loads as max. With bullets seated out, they seem to function better in my 9mm's, and a must for use in a luger. I don't know if it is still true, but at one time Hornady showed something like 1.08 inches for the loaded length with their 124 grain truncated cone bullet. Way on the short side......

With 124 grain bullets, some Blue Dot data goes up as high as 8.5 grains, and velocities up to 1,300 fps. At 7.5 grains and a velocity of 1,080, in my guns it is a rather mild load....

>I imagine these loads that Speer recommends for the 9mm Luger cartridge would be scary, and bone jarring, too...

Why? Cartridge can't generate enough recoil to be jarring. Powder is not going to be jarring.
I found that Blue Dot is a great powder for max velocity in 9x19. I couldn't even get enough powder in the case for bullets less than 115gn to reach max pressure.
Only problem I had was putting my finger on the case mouth as the shell plate rotates as the charge filled the cases. Compressed loads are no problem.

Hi,

Pressure isn't really the problem, breach block slap is.


Sieger

Hi Sieger,

I never thought of this, and assumed high pressure was responsible for breach block slap and didn't give it a lot of thought, but after thinking about this a bit I totally agree. Thanks for the wake-up call.

I am trying to get a handle on these Lugers as far as reloading still. I wish it was as simple as trying one of your favorite loads, but I have limited powders available; recently all I have been able to buy is Titegroup which is pretty quick-burning. I have had decent functioning at starting and near starting loads, so I really don't believe pressure is an issue. I have seen a little bit of breach block slap though which I don't like.

Is it the burn rate that causes BBS, or is it some other powder characteristic?

I just noticed after typing this that Blue Dot is fairly slow, so maybe it is something else that causes this other than burn rate?

There has been some of the VihtaVuori powder around locally but I have avoided it as 1) It's quite expensive 2) I don't have any history with it. But ... maybe I should try some VV N330 if I can find some locally - it's right by Power Pistol in burn rate. Thoughts?

Chris

These days my thought is if it is available, I will buy the powder that takes the least amount to work the action. I have Blue Dot but it takes twice as much (or more) of Blue Dot than, say, W231 or Red Dot to get the same effect. That means I can only get half the amount of reloads out of a pound of powder. I no longer care about the most accurate load [quality], I'm going for quantity. There was a time when I tried different bullets, different weights, different powders, etc. Now I stick with what works and the least amount of it. :rolleyes:

I'll leave it to you young guys to sort out what is 'best'. :thumbup:

This.

If one had a cheap Russian capture or mismatched, if you could custom make a 50lb+ recoil spring, you could fire +P+, 9mm Major, what your hearts content. I feel the luger can take it, may be more beating on extractor - but you want to prevent the action from overextending and hitting the frame.

You would defiantly feel the extra pressure just cocking the gun. Standard loads most likely would not cycle the weapon.

Chris,

VV 3N37 is a good powder for the 9mm, as it was designed, specifically, as a 9mm military powder. With 3N37, I get the desired velocity and the desired accuracy I'm looking for.

Tight Group was tested by me years ago. For me, it was too fast and not all that accurate; generally a mediocre powder at best. With Tight Group velocity wasn't a problem, but accuracy was.

Breach Block Slap is something you can really feel in the web of your hand. The last time I experience it was with some red hot Chinese ammo. In fact, this ammo was so hot, the pistol reacted as if it wanted to jump out of my hand!!!

For many of the faster powders, I can not reach the accuracy level I want before the system "overloads" and starts the slapping process. The medium and medium/slow powders give you more "room" to find an accurate load, that will function your Luger perfectly, before the slapping process occurs.

If you will only be target shooting, I suggest Bullseye Powder. For 124 gr. bullets, my accuracy load is only 3.7 grs. I've shot 7 touching with this load, and it develops adequate power to properly function the action reliably. With this powder, you can achieve excellent accuracy, while maintaining low, non-threating pressures and velocities.

Here is my specific load:

Winchester Commercial Cases
Remington 1 1/2 Primers
Hornady 124 gr. FMJFP (the so called Airforce Bullet)
O.A.L. 28.7 mm (critical for jam free operation
Bullseye Powder 3.7 grs.

Good shooting!!


Sieger

Thanks again Sieger!

This is starting to make more sense (I think). I guess I will see if there is any of the 3N37 around here, and if not hold off until I can get some Bullseye when I get out of town.

I have had pretty good results with Titegroup in my 44 mag with light target loads, but I agree it does not seem to be a good powder for my Luger.

Chris

Hello again Sieger,

I was able to get hold of some Bullseye powder! Waiting for some 125g. cast bullets and right now have only 115 g. bullets. Any suggestions for Bullseye for 115g.?

Thanks! - Chris

For those looking (and handgun powders have been in remarkably short supply recently) Winchester 231 is exactly the same powder as Hodgden HP-38. Most books that list W-231 also have exactly the same load data listed under HP-38. With less marketing expense, HP-38 has traditionally been priced a little lower than the Winchester powder.

If anyone sees availability of either powder, please PM me. I'm getting down to the last pound...

Marc

Hi,

By the way, which brand of FMJ 115s are you using?

For FMJ 115s, 3.8 grs of Bullseye is my accuracy load.


Sieger

Thanks Sieger, helpful info.

Very limited supply of Remington FMJ right now. Also have many 115 g. Xtreme plated. I know most folks here don't care for/use the plated. I will try to find an accurate load for those though as well. if not I will stay with the FMJ although I need to scrounge up some more.

I also have on order (I think 6 weeks ago and they are running 6-8 weeks behind) some 124 g (125 g.?) cast bullets. Would you suggest starting with 3.7 g. Bullseye for those as well?

Thanks,
Chris

Chris,

It sure would.

Sieger