Luger will not fire until the trigger is pulled twice.
 

First time posting.

I picked up a mismatched Luger, looks like a complete upper on a complete lower from the serial numbers that I can see.

I took it to the range today for the first time and here is what it is doing.

1) Load mag in, cycle action as normal.

2) First trigger pull of first round fired as normal.

3) Action cycles and loads second round as normal.

4) Pull trigger and nothing happens, no click no sounds at all.

5) Pull trigger again and it fires as normal.

6) Loads new round and the process repeats. First pull of trigger and nothing second pull of trigger and fire.

I went thru 4 magazines full of ammo to make sure it would repeat and it did without a miss. Always two pulls of the trigger to fire after the initial round is shot. No failures to feed or eject.

I have read a few other posts about a similar problem but they refer to a light hammer strike and not repeatable two pulls of the trigger like this one does.

Anyone have ideas?

HI welcome to the forum. have you thoroughly cleaned the pistol? my first thought would be gunk in the sidplate or sear or a worn out trigger spring. light hammer strike shoudnt apply to this becuase you would have to caulk the gun again to reset the trigger. If dirty or worn perhaps the first pull primes the sideplate arm and the second pull is just enough to pop to the sear. also is the firing pin spring and breach block free of debris?

Sounds like the disconnector ( the little plunger at the front of the sear bar) may not be resetting properly until bumped by the trigger bar. Check it to make sure it's clean and lubricated.

Also look at the small axle pin (the fulcrum) that the sear bar rotates around. Make sure it's clean and in position.

Marc

welcome to the forum, i allso had a dwm doing the same thing. A total striping and solvent cleaning , i mean every part had to be cleaned , then dried and reoiled and worked fine then . good luck

Thanks for the replies. I think I will totally detail strip it and see if anything is obvious. My first instinct was a weak trigger spring or a problem with the disconnector.

I was in Vegas about 4 years ago at a pawn shop just looking around and there was a box of DVDs and the top one was a AGI Browning Hi-Power gunsmithing DVD. I opened the box and there was 40 of them in there, everything firearm I owned and many more. Also some "How to butcher game" and hunting DVDs.

I asked the kid behind the counter how much he wanted for the whole set and he said it had been there a couple of years and wanted 100 bucks. Well I just about broke my wrist trying to get the money out quick enough before he changed his mind. lol

Each one of the DVDs is about 40 bucks.

One of the DVDs is on the Luger so I will give it a view and I will see what I find.

Marc, is correct. The disconnector plunger is not pushing back the trigger lever in the side plate upon normal recoil. Sometimes just increasing the angle of the top rear edge of the lever will cure the problem. TH

Agree with the Doc and Marc. A common problem is trigger reset.

So I watched the AGI Luger DVD and it was excellent, he explained how the trigger worked and had a nice cut away Luger to demonstrate it.

I totally stripped and cleaned everything, that main spring was fun to get back in.

Here is what I found.

1) The end of the Trigger bar spring is broken off, there is enough spring left to hold the trigger bar but I think this is my main culprit.

2) The trigger spring itself looks like it has been cut, I don't have an original to compare with but I will get another one anyway.

3) When I released the firing pin guide and took out the firing pin and spring, out came two springs. Looks like the original spring and then someone else has put in a small about 3/8" heaver spring to help supplement the spring action of the firing pin I can only guess.

The trigger leaver moves freely with some play and pushes the trigger bar as it should so I am assuming that since the end of the trigger bar spring is broken it is not positively holding the trigger bar correctly in the right relationship to let the trigger bar plunger (disconnector) do it's thing.

Numrich has all these parts, anyone suggest another supplier that they have been happy with?

Talk with Tom (LugerDoc)...

BF, I have all of the original parts you mentioned, if Numrich doesn't have them or you don't want repros. TH

Pm sent.

Reading the post about a horrible trigger pull fix by QuanLoi, I had a thought in my head and wondered if there was something wrong with the "L" or Trigger lever.

Watching the AGI DVD on the Luger the smith said that his cut away model was really good and that some of the put together Luger's have to be fitted to work correctly. As he pulled the trigger it was a nice smooth movement of the trigger lever the way it should be.

I pulled mine apart and with the top removed and just the trigger plate on the lower, watching the trigger lever as I slowly pulled the trigger was an eye opener.

As I pulled the trigger the lever started to move as normal and then about 1/2 thru the movement it stopped or more like hesitated and then continued on.

I think this can account for the being able to fire every other trigger pull that I am having. Fires every time on the first load but when you pull the second time nothing and this extra trigger pull must reset this lever to where it should be and then it will fire.

So taking the advice of the other poster I added a small amount of JB weld to the lever on the bottom part and waited till it cured. I had to sand some of it off to even get it on the trigger again but eventually I got it to fit.

Now when I put the trigger plate on the lower and slowly pull the trigger the trigger lever moves with no hesitation at all and I only have to pull the trigger about 1/2 way for it to fire. Before I had to almost bury the trigger before it would fire.

So I am kind of anxious to see if it will now work correctly.

Did this make sense to anyone?

Is the pin that retains the trigger bar worn where the trigger bar rotates around it?

Marc

When you test fire the pistol, be sure to load only two rounds in the magazine. If the gun goes full auto when you pull the trigger, you need to file off more of the JB Weld. In any event, your trigger pull should be reduced somewhat.

Good luck...

I assume you mean the trigger lever pin #36 http://www.gunpartscorp.com/catalog/...spx?catid=3124

I tried removing the pin from the trigger plate but so far no such luck, it is wedged in there really good and I don't have the correct punch size. Today I am going to stop by my local tool store and get a small set of punches.

On the AGI DVD the smith just rotates it easily but mine is almost welded in.

I was wondering about that pin this morning before leaving to work, maybe it is warn on one side and that is why the lever will hesitate when you pull the trigger.

Marc: If you mean #10 http://www.gunpartscorp.com/catalog/...spx?catid=3124 then no it is fine and does not rotate.

Use a brass screwdriver. Check out this video...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uHh9prVMYpM

MFC: I finally got it out, it was in there good. The pin looks just fine as does the lever so that is not my problem. I kind of expected the lever to be rounded out or the pin to be warn in some what but they both look good and fit good.

I am going to go to the range tomorrow and we will see if the small bit of JB Weld on the lever will do the trick.

No my little JB Weld fix didn't cure the no second shot problem.

When the replacement springs get here from Lugerdoc I will replace them all and give it another try. I am sure I just need to find the proper relationship between the trigger lever and the trigger bar plunger.

If I work the pistol manually with some snap caps it works every time. Chamber a round, pull the trigger and work the toggle and pull the trigger again and it works.

With live ammo it doesn't work.

HI James, the pin I was talking about was #36 in the parts diagram. They can be difficult to remove, but it was worthwhile checking it.

Marc

I finally got it out and it was fine, no slop. I also got the Trigger bar plunger pin and spring out and there was a bit of crud in there but seems to be ok.

James, Your luger is suffering from the classic disconnecting problem. I'm sure that you will learn a lot about the PO8s "rube goldberg" designed firing sequence from this project. I've been correcting these problems for over 40 years and can't tell you exactly what to try next. It's easier on a mismatch shooter where you can change triggers, sears or trigger levers without having to worry about mismatched parts. But on matching PO8s, it usually comes down to finding (bending, etc) the right angled trigger lever, not shimming or building up parts. TH

Tom: Yes I am certainly learning all about the luger. I wish I could see inside the trigger plate to see what exactly is not correct. I tried putting a thin line of whiteout on the trigger lever and the sear pin, held the trigger back and racked the toggle to see where the engagement exactly is when I release the trigger afterwards. It didn't really show me much.

Since I live in Canada shipping the Luger to you is out of the question, when I get the replacement springs at least I will have a known starting point to work with and I will continue my quest.

YEP,The trigger bar is bad, needs a sideplate , the best way to test this problem b4 you buy the gun is, Keep the trigger depressed (DOWN) and work the action. If you than let go of the trigger while it is in battery than, and it does not fire,the gun has a problem, and it is advisable to check any Luger for this b4 you buy it. it is the disconnector, 90 percent of the time the trigger bar, or that sear might need to be cleaned etc. The question was answerred so.

Received the springs from Tom and installed them on the Luger. The trigger bar spring was the biggest improvement that I noticed and the Luger seems to be working fine now with the new springs installed. I will take it to the range in the next week or two and see how it does and report back.

Finally got a chance to go to the range yesterday with the Luger since I replaced all the springs.

Same basic problem as before but this time I tried when it wouldn't fire on the second round to just recock it and then it would fire. Kind of a hit and miss so I guess it is back to the drawing board.

Tom.."".(bending, etc) the right angled trigger lever"", HUH? I know you have decades more experience but trigger levers are so hard I have never been able to bend one..they just snap like dry twigs!

Sounds like a classic case of the disconnector not pushing under the trigger lever on the first try. There are many possible solutions: increasing the angle on the top part of lever, heating lever to bend slightly outward or first checking that disconnector spring is strong enough. TH

Don't forget heating this part in order to change its shape/angle will necessitate heat treating again afterwards to reestablish its temper!

(bending, etc) the right angled trigger lever

I have been interested in heat treatment of various metals ever since I went to gunsmithing school many decades ago..It's something you better know about or have a lot of experience with before you try it at home!

Yes, it probably requires a certain amount of knowledge of how the different alloys will behave when treated. But all this is stuff that can be found in pertinent reference books--or, as I did, by asking the Knowledgeable! It will be involved in creating the small run of extractors for the Erma KGP86 that I'm on the path toward. When one knows the alloy and target hardness, it will be simple enough to apply even heat to the parts to achieve the required temp for the intended result. If the required temperature and its accuracy are within the capabilities of the home setup--in this case, a toaster oven and a box of sand or salt--I say go for it! I think many of us are competent enough to reproduce 100+ -year-old technology right in the home shop!

I've always found it interesting that quenching a red hot piece of copper or brass will make it softer/more malleable, contrasted with ferrous stuff which always winds up a bit harder under this treatment. Something ferrous, when heated to red and quenched in either water or oil, will result in a part that's dead hard within its range, but brittle as glass. Re-heating to a lesser temp and quenching after this is accomplished draws off varying degrees of that hardness, trading it for toughness, with dead soft at the other end of the spectrum.

I've always found it interesting that quenching a red hot piece of copper or brass will make it softer/more malleable,

David..Heating copper or brass to a red temp is all it takes..let it cool ..quenching is not necessary. It doesn't hurt the metal or make it any harder but heating or annealing brass makes it as soft as it will ever get. The only way to harden brass is to work it. Bend it, roll it, pound on it..it will be hard again and brass that is worked must be annealed in order to prevent it cracking.

You are quite correct about the ability to learn the procedures..The internet is a great learning source. As are people willing to share!
Gold and silver the same...

Interesting.. considering you need to pull the trigger twice to shoot one round. I pulled the trigger once today and it shot 2 rounds...

Heating and bending the trigger and finding the correct angle etc. is out of my league so I am going to wait till after hunting season is over and send it to a gunsmith. I wish I lived in the states there are lots to choose from but I found a smith that I can send it to that has a good reputation for working on Luger's.

Several years ago, I made a pair of brass cafe' chairs, incorporated in a memorial sculpture by Robt. Bertoia (nephew, I think, of the more famous Harry Bertoia) on the Ithaca Commons. I copied all the design elements of a regular cafe' chair in 1/2" round brass stock--looped feet, twined members, etc. The weak point was the single strand on each side, which supported the chair backs. TIG welding had annealed the pieces at critical points to the extent that the soft material would have been an easy thing for potential vandals to break off, had I not reinforced these areas. This, because, as Jerry pointed out, there is no other way to re-harden brass than work hardening. Heating and allowing the metal to cool (relatively) slowly--annealing--softens most common metals. Not sure about titanium, as I have no experience with it. But as Jerry said, heating cupric alloys softens them whether or not they are quenched.

Back to the side plate lever, How 'bout obtaining a different side plate to try? Another option would be to change out the lever itself--a bit of a PITA, but way less involved than metallurgical shenanigans, and harmless to all components involved.

David..'bout obtaining a different side plate to try? That would be my first approach..Good idea.

Sometimes, I remove a bit off the face of the trigger lever that lets the disconnector push past it for the reset, but if you take too much off the gun will not fire at all. Sometimes the leaf sear spring is too strong. Tom Heller (lugerdoc) has schooled me on much of this. Also on early Lugers if you see DRAG marks, on the left side of the receiver, made by the face of the trigger lever, there is a good chance it is over rotating during the firing sequence. I NEVER bend the trigger levers unless I am darn sure they are not hardened, most are and will break before bending. It is mostly about the disconnector spring strength and the trigger lever rotational movement. When the trigger is pulled the shot should break just before the trigger contacts the frame and when the toggle cycles and the trigger is released the lever needs to move far enough to allow the disconnector button, at the end of the sear bar, to pop back in place. When everything is in position correctly and the trigger arm has the right angles in play, and you have a good spring you usually get a reset after firing. One more variable to throw in the mix. the trigger slot can affect it too but not as much. One way to visually watch the reset process, is to remove the toggle train from the reciever, then put the gun back together without the train in place. You can see the disconnector button pop back in place when everything is working properly.

The took the Luger along for the ride to the range today and here is what happens that I never tried before.

Load magazine with ammo and cycle the slide as normal.
Pull trigger and it will always fire first shot.
Toggle extracts and loads new round as usual.

Pull trigger and nothing.

If I now pull back on the toggle for about an inch it will **** and I close the toggle as normal and it will now fire one round.

So for the rest of the magazine I need to pull the toggle back enough to **** it and let it go and it will fire.

Are there any other area's I need to look at except the trigger group?

The "Nervous Nazi" Luger. No firing on that first combat flinch. Have a great Christmas everyone!

BF, You have the classic problem of the disconnector (plunger in the trigger bar) not pushing under the trigger lever (in side plate) on recoil. There can be various causes for this to happen, but the fix usually involves the 2 parts mentioned. TH