History of Police Safety Sear Installation
 

I'm curious to get some history and timeline of what may have happened to my 1917 Luger. My Luger is dated 1917 however the barrel and extension have been reblued and the numbers do not match the rest of the gun. It also has a sear safety. The grip frame has police markings and had been fitted with a mag safety that is no longer there.

I figure it's a WWI military produced gun that then went to the police force. It was "recalled" sometime in the 30's to have the safetys installed. Here are my questions;

1. Would the gun have been issued to the Police and the Police markings stamped on the grip frame before or after the gun was recalled to have the safetys installed?

2. If they were issued to the police after the safety install and grip frame markeing, where were they between the end of WWI and the time of the refit?

3. Would the gun have the sear safety installed and then have the barrel/extension reblued at the same time? Why was the rebluing neccessary? Would they then possibly rebuild the pistols with mismatching barrel/extension to the rest of the gun?

4. If these guns where recalled from police forces and already had the police markings, how did they insure they got back to the same police force after the refit?

I'm just curious on the entire timeline and history of how and why many of these guns went from military to police and how and why so many of these pistols have ended up with mismatching numbers.

Any insight or direction to an information source online would be greatly appreciated!

Thanks!

:confused:

Eric, welcome to the forum.

Without good photos or a detailed description of your gun, we can't be very definitive about that particular weapon. However, many Lugers manufactured in the late stages of WWI were transferred to various police forces soon after the war. Many of these received the 1920 government property stamp and unit markings on the front grip strap. Sear and magazine safeties were not installed until about 1934. Magazine safeties were removed or disabled about 1937. Your gun should fit this general timeline.

Don,

Thank you for the info. Yes all of that I have already read and I understand. I'm not just asking about my specific piece but more in general terms, as I like to see the "Big Picture" first.

My Luger does not have the additional 1920 Stamp so it never went back into military service after WWI. Makes sense as it went to police service shown by the police stamps.

So you are saying it would have been put into police service soon after WWI and at that point received the police marks? And then later they would have been "recalled" to have the safetys installed?

OK, if that is the case then what about my other questions?

3. Would the gun have the sear safety installed and then have the barrel/extension reblued at the same time? Why was the rebluing neccessary? Would they then possibly rebuild the pistols with mismatching barrel/extension to the rest of the gun?

4. If these guns where recalled from police forces and already had the police markings, how did they insure they got back to the same police force after the refit?

This then begs another question:

5. What arms did the police forces use during the time when their weapons had been recalled for the refit?

I guess I really haven't found much info on the how, what, and why of the safety recall and refit. Is there any info on that part of history that I can be told or directed too on the internet?

Again any help would be greatly appreciated!

Thanks!

Things are not as simple as lugers went from WW1 to the police or army.

Some were placed into storage, some destroyed, some went to the army, some to the police. Many were issued years after they were put into storage (and had been hidden from the allied forces).

The 1920 is a gov't marking, and is coincidental for being on a police luger. Not all lugers received the 1920 stamping, officers who owned lugers did not receive unit stamps or the 1920 marking, and those lugers hidden by the military may or may not have received the marking.

There are good books that talk about the safety installs and you can do searches on the forums about them.....

If your top does not match the bottom, then it is not correct. If for some reason it had been 'swapped' out before the retrofit, then it would have been matched up then. Lugers did not leave the peace time armory without the gun being all matched.

Ed

So that answers my question about what could have happened after WWI ended. They where probably stamped and issued to the police after the war and could have been in storage, or not, for some time before being issued.


That answers part of question 3. They would not refit the pistol and then send it out with mismatched numbers.

What about the remaining questions. Any insight?

3. Would the gun have the sear safety installed and then have the barrel/extension reblued at the same time? Why was the rebluing neccessary?

4. If these guns where recalled from police forces and already had the police markings, how did they insure they got back to the same police force after the refit?

5. What arms did the police forces use during the time when their weapons had been recalled for the refit?

Plus one new question:

6. If they always made sure that the pistols had correct and matching numbers before they were dispatched, how and why did so many of these Lugers end up in America with mismatching numbers?

Again any help with these basic questions would be appreciated. I have been searching this forum and the rest of the internet but haven't been able to find much "general" information regarding these questions.

Thanks again!!

see below
What about the remaining questions. Any insight?

3. Would the gun have the sear safety installed and then have the barrel/extension reblued at the same time? Why was the rebluing neccessary?
IT DEPENDS, IF THE GUN NEEDED A NEW BARREL, THEN A NEW BARREL WAS ADDED, IF IT RECEIVED A MAGAZINE SAFETY, IT NEEDED TO BE REBLUED. A FACTORY OR ARMORY SHOULD NOT BE CONFUSED WITH A USA GUNSMITH REBLUE (ONE WHO DOES NOT KNOW WHAT HE IS DOING, NOT SOME OF THE LUGER SMITHS HERE ON THE FORUM)
4. If these guns where recalled from police forces and already had the police markings, how did they insure they got back to the same police force after the refit?
US ARMS ROOMS SEND OFF GUNS TO THIS DAY AND GET THEM FIXED AND SENT BACK TO THE UNIT, JUST PROPER PAPERWORK...
5. What arms did the police forces use during the time when their weapons had been recalled for the refit?
THE OLDER REVOLVERS, OR SENT THEM IN BATCHES AT A TIME AND WERE USING SOMETHING ELSE, I AM NOT 100% POSITVE ABOUT THIS, COULD BE MANY FACTORS....
Plus one new question:

6. If they always made sure that the pistols had correct and matching numbers before they were dispatched, how and why did so many of these Lugers end up in America with mismatching numbers?
TO MAKE GUNS FOR SALE IN THE USA, MANY NON-WORKING GUNS WERE PUT TOGETHER TO GET THEM WORKING; THIS HAPPENED IN GERMANY, IN THE USA, OVERSEAS BEING SHIPPED HERE ETC. MANY, MANY REASONS THIS HAPPENED, IT SIMPLY DID. SOME WERE BY GI'S, BUT I BELIEVE MANY WERE BY DISTRIBUTORS TRYING TO GET WORKING GUNS.

Edward,

Thank you for your great answers! That really helps to clear things up.

One thing though. You stated: IF IT RECEIVED A MAGAZINE SAFETY, IT NEEDED TO BE REBLUED.

Why would the barrel/extension need to be reblued after a magazine safety refit? I can understand it maybe needing rebluing after a sear safety refit as there is some working on the extension to fit the sear safety. Any other details on the procedure involved for the safety refits?

Also I presume that once the barrel/extension gets mismatched to a different frame, you can never know what year the frame came from. Or is there a way to date the frame without a matching year dated barrel?

Thanks again for all this great info. It's really helping to make the "Big Picture" a lot clearer!

Why did German cancel the added-on magazine safety after it's massively applied? I heard it did not work anyway, so German cancelled it later. Is that true? If true, how could German gun masters do something as wrong as this?

From what I read that is correct. The "added-on" magazine safety never worked very well. So it was eventually scraped. Some had the entire piece removed and others they simply cut off the part that would sit behind the trigger and keep it from moving when the safety was engaged.

I guess it's hard to engineer something new as an "add-on" that will work well. Although the sear safety "add-on" seems to work just fine.

Yes, you are right the sear safety would require only a bit of reblue, if needed, the mag safety reblue would be the lower, sorry about the confusion.

The myth of the Germans never making a mistake is a bit silly, everyone makes mistakes, many times the paper or the bureaucracy would say something was great and it wasnt

Thanks again Edward.

Can you comment on my other question?

I presume that once the barrel/extension gets mismatched to a different frame, you can never know what year the frame came from. Or is there a way to date the frame without a matching year dated barrel?

Thanks

Yes and no, Mauser frames have a hump (see FAQ) while some like Erfurt would be stamped, as would Simson Lugers, a guess by the serial number and suffix would give you a guess...

Thanks again Ed!!

My Luger is a DWM with matching numbers on everything except the barrel and extension. Of course the barrel has the 1917 date on it. Any way to date the frame?

I understand that the serial numbers started new every year and with only 4 digits they added a new letter suffix every time it went past 9999. That would mean that every year there would be one identical numbered gun as every other year. Since only the barrel had the year stamp on it, is there any way to date the frame since the barrel is incorrect to the frame? Were there any frame markings that would identify the year?

Thanks again for all your help on this!

Was the magazine safety add-on designed by Fritz Walther?

I doubt that installation of either a sear safety or magazine safety required any rebluing. Clearly, the barrel extension was not reblued at that time because the brad holding the safety on is always in the white unless the gun was reblued later. The cut in the frame for the mag safety would not have required rebluing of the frame.

The magazine safety was designed by Walther.

Don, I see your point, I was talking about touch up, and not a full reblue for install.

The magazine safety required drilling, have you seen many that were still installed (cut but installed) and the hole was in the white?

After being taken off, they were either left in place or they were welded shut, if welded, that would require some kind of touch up or reblue.

Ed, I have not specifically looked for any evidence of rebluing of either the slot or the hole for the mag safety but am going on recalled appearance and logic. It might be a good topic for someone to research. I agree about the need for a touch up if the slot was welded or brazed closed.

I think jags has parts of two different police Lugers. Like you, I think it very unlikely that they were put together by a police arsenal without force matching the serial numbers. It would be interesting to know if the brad on the sear safety of jags' Luger is blued. If so, the bluing of the upper happened sometime after the safety was installed.

Thanks for all the input!!

Here's a pic that might help with the discussion:

http://www.giftworldminimall.com/p08c.jpg

Is there anyway to date a military frame without the barrel date?

Thanks again!

You can 'guess' by the serial number and suffix....

How would that work since every year they started all over again with the same numbers and letter suffixes?

yes, and no, give us the serial number w/ suffix....

ways to figure it out, certain suffixes were made only certain years

ask Don when that police unit was in existence, as that will help narrow it down

look at the bottom of the lug on see what kinds of markings are on it (this won't help much)

Etc, everything is guess work when the top and bottom don't match, but you can do a guess

Thanks for the insight. I don't have the luger in my posession yet so all I have to go by are the photos I have posted here. The photo with the frame serial number is not clear enough to see the suffix. When I get it in my possesion I will look for these markings.

I really do appreciate all the info you guys have provided. I bought this as a shooter so I never expected to really get much "history" out of it. It is fun and interesting to try to do the "detective work" to discover what ever history you can.

I definately see how and why collecting the Luger can become so addictive!!

Thanks to all of you once again!

Now that some photos are available, it is possible to answer a number of questions.

The upper is probably from a reworked Landjägerei 1917 DWM LP08 as described in http://forum.lugerforum.com/showthread.php?t=20449. The brad on the sear safety appears to be blued indicating the upper was reblued sometime after the safety was installed.

The frame appears to have the serial number 2905s. If this is correct, it is almost certainly from a 29 DWM, manufactured in 1929. The marking on the grip strap (L.T.8.) is from the Landjägerei of the district of Trier and further supports that the frame is from one of the 29 DWMs that were issued to the police in 1929-30.

The grip strap marking is quite rare (HWIS pp.194-5).

Wow!! Thanks Don! I guess there is more history we can squeze out of this girl!

The barrel/extension is quite obvious to date. Nice to know the information about the sight notch at the front of the receiver. I'll try to provide more info on any barrel markings once I get the gun in hand.


What really amazes me is how you can deduce that the frame may be from a 1929 DWM. I would think that without any other markings other than the serial number it could have been from almost any year. If it is an "s" suffix (and I'll check that when I see it) that would narrow down to years that only had "s" frames made. But I see that there where a few years with "s" suffix frames made. Any insight on how you could be so sure that it would have been a 1929 frame just based on this?


How would the police markings on the grip strap further support that it was made in 1929? It does look like the frame was blued after the police markings where made, plus the markings are very nicely done. Were the new guns that were manufactured in 1929 marked with the police markings and then blued and finished? If so, yes, I can see why it would be easy to deduce it was a 1929 frame. Please elaborate if you can.

Also, I read that there were 24,000 guns made for the Police forces in 1929 that had "s", "t", or "u" suffixes. Would these guns have the last 2 #s of the serial number also stamped on all the other parts of the gun as was the norm for military guns? Or would the other parts be blank or have small numbers like the commercial models?


Nice to see that this piece has some rarity to it. Why is this rare? Was this a small unit? What other information can you provide me on the Landjägerei of the district of Trier.

Thanks again for all your help! What would be a fair price for this Luger?

In the cold light of dawn, I should revise my statement about the frame to say it is "probably" a 29DWM. It could be an Imperial-era frame but I lean toward the 29DWM because of the prevalence of them among Landjägerei Lugers. The unit marking definitely was stamped after bluing because it has a halo.

The history of the Landjägerei, including those of Trier, is addressed in History Writ in Steel. This unit had about 150 men but less than a handful of L.T. markings have been reported.

Thanks Don!

I emailed the gentleman I'm getting the Luger from and he says the suffix is the letter "b". I looked at a "suffix chart" and see that the "b" and "s" are very similar and the picture is not clear enough to see what it actually is. When I get it in hand I will try to get a better picture so we can determine for sure.

Also I did some more research and see that if it is an "s" suffix it could only be a 1929 or possibly a 1918. 1918 was the only year the production went high enough to reach the letter "s". Also, like you said, they made 24,000 specifically for the police in 1929 and 9,999 of those would have had the "s" suffix.

Now if it's a "b" suffix it would have to be an Imperial-era frame as the later "commercial alphabet" started with the letter "i".

Like you I'm leaning toward it being a 1929 frame. We'll see once we can take a good close look at that suffex letter. One question though, would these 1929 guns have the last 2 #s of the serial number also stamped on all the other parts of the gun as was the norm for military guns? Or would the other parts be blank or have small numbers like the commercial models?

I'm glad we have found at least the frame for another Luger of the Trier Landjägerei. I'm going to try to see if I can find a copy of your book somewhere locally. I live in a small town here in Hawaii so I don't think I will find it. Just wish it wasn't so expensive as I would buy one. My last name is Jaeger so it would be very interesting to read up on the Landjägerei!!

Thanks again and I'll keep you all updated as things unfold.

Eric,

As you note, if it is a b, the frame is from an Imperial-era Luger. The two other Lugers with L.T. markings I have recorded in HWIS are both 1918 DWMs with b suffixes.

Looking harder at the available photos I see that the barrel extension and perhaps the barrel have been heavily buffed. However, the breech block and toggle train appear to be in their original condition. The rear toggle link appears to have a police acceptance stamp which would suggest that the toggle link is also from a reworked LP08. Its serial numbers 05 match those of the frame 2905 as does the side plate.

It's beginning to look more like you will be getting a Luger that has a frame, toggle train and side plate from a reworked LP08 but with a barrel extension and possibly barrel from another Luger. Very odd!

We'll just have to wait until you can examine it in person and hopefully post some detailed photos.

Although your question about serial numbering of 29DWMs may be moot for your pistol, those that were issued to the police had commercial style numbering from the factory but the police added military style numbering on receipt so most have both.

Yes it looks like we are coming to some agreement on all this. Once I get the pistol in hand I will check for all the minor details. It is interesteing that it seems that, even though they came from 2 different guns, both the barrel/receiver and the frame/toggle assembly may have gone through the same standard police retrofit procedure. Furthermore, both may have started their lives as LP08s!

Thanks again for all the info!

The key to the barrel/receiver question will be the markings on the barrel.

I also note that the left grip has been replaced (and probably the right) since the mag safety was removed. If it was present when the mag safety was in place the left grip would be missing the upper left corner which had to be removed to allow the mag safety to function.

Yes I kind of figured that also that the grips were replaced. Ok to me as a shooter.

From what you've seen could you give me a fair market price estimate for this shooter?

Thanks!

This is definitely a shooter and I think its value would depend on its mechanical condition which we know nothing about. Assuming it feeds, shoots straight, etc., I would estimate around $600 but I am not a good source for value estimates. Maybe Ed Tinker or someone else will chime in.

$650-$850, everything depends on how it looks, sometimes a bit less, and also where you live and who is buying it....

Thank you gentlemen!

As I mentioned I have just bought this Luger and it is being sent to me as we speak. It is being represented to me as a good shooter. Price was right in the middle of Ed's figures plus I am in Hawaii where these things are very difficult to find and purchase. So it looks like all is good and I have received a fair deal.

Once I get it in hand and can determine the markings more accurately I'll let you all know what additional information I may find. I realize that this is not a collector piece and I purchased it as a shooter, but determining some of it's history has been very enlightening and kind of fun!!

Thank you both again for all your help! If you ever need a place to stay in Hawaii please let me know as I own and operate the Halemalu Vacation Villa. www.halemalu.com I'll give you both a great deal!

As we wait for my Luger to arrive, I have a question for Don. In your research of different police units have you found any units that have a high percentage of the 1929 made police issued Lugers?

I have a theory that the production of the 24,000 1929 police Lugers is directly connected to the 1929 decree that the police should have the 4 inch barrel lugers. I do not think that when a police unit sent in their Lugers to be reworked that they would receive these same Lugers back. Too big of a logistical headache. Instead the first units ordered to turn in their pistols actually received a batch of the new 1929 Lugers first. That way they would not be without guns. Then, as the government received more and more of the old Lugers and had a chance to rework them, they would then start issuing these reworked pistols along with some of the new ones to other police units.

If this was the case there should be a few police units that received all new 1929 models at the very onset of the program. Thus these units would have a high percentage of 1929 models. I'm curious if any of the data you have may back up this theory of mine.

Let me know what you think and if this makes any sense. It seems logical to me.

Thanks!

The Landjägerei had a very high percentage of 29 DWMs although many other Prussian police units had some as well. The data tables in HWIS demonstrate this.

Jags, i myself think you maybe very correct in your assumption. The picture of my 1929 dwm police , most concure on here it was a new gun when issued to the Landicejer police. Others on the forum may have ideas on this matter. Hope to see some pictures of your new purchase and welcome to the forum.

The photo of the toggle train isn't quite sharp enough to make out, but the rear toggle is from either an Erfurt or possibley a Simson (if the mark is an E/6). This must have been put together from several pistols, including the very rare unit marked frame.

Take your time with dis-assembly, cleaning and lubrication. Especially be careful when removing the grips. Lift the left one only slightly before sliding it away from the safety lever. Hopefully you'll find it in good mechanical and shooting condition. They are quite a bit of fun to shoot. I'm left handed, and especially like the cartridge cases ejecting over my head instead of across my face...

Marc

Thanks for the great comments! This is my first Luger, and I know it doesn't match, but I bought it as a Shooter and to fill out my Indiana Jones handgun collection. So I'm looking forward to it!

Yes Don. Were there any specific Landjägerei units in which the data shows them only having the new 1929 issues 100%? If so this would support my theory that the new 1929's where issued to a few units first before the reworked guns got thrown into the mix.

Any one else with any thoughts regarding this?

When you receive your Luger, please take good closeup pictures of the serial number and suffix on the frame above the trigger guard. It could still well be that the suffix is a "s"...

This frame serial number including the suffix would be the serial number to record as describing your Luger.

Marc

The data tables in Chapter 13 of HWIS indicate nearly all of the Landjägerei units had 100% 29DWMs. There are a few exceptions, such as the Trier district. These may have received P08s later from the growing supply of reworked LP08s.

I applaud your interest in learning more about the "big picture" regarding these guns and police units. One of the reasons that I included virtually all of the available data in HWIS was to provide resources for further research by others. Considering your interest, I would encourage you to obtain a copy of HWIS. I believe it will answer many of your questions or provide a starting point for further inquiry.

The parallel thread about reworked Landjägerei LP08s on Jan Still's forum (http://luger.gunboards.com/showthrea...JÄGEREI-LP08s) generated more responses and led to the discovery that the markings on the rear toggle links were police acceptance stamps (e.g., */D) indicative of replacement by the police armory during the conversion process. I suspect we will find that that is what is stamped on jags' pistol.