Late Mauser small parts bluing
 

I have a military proofed 42 dated Banner toggle Luger from early in the "g" block (715g) that has me pondering a bit.

It's been discussed here earlier just after I bought it.

I looked over it again the other night, and verified that the breech block was Stick Eagle over N proofed, while the receiver was E/135 military proofed.

I bought it as a re-blued gun. It has small parts that should be in the white. These include the recoil coupling link and the safety sear block bar. Both parts are deeply salt blued.

The color tone of the receiver looks deeper and more polished than the frame or barrel.

The pistol is so crisp and appears to have so little wear, handling or usage that I wonder why it would have been re-blued in the first place. The bore looks new. It's puzzling.

Has there ever been a record of the small parts like these being shipped from the factory as blued parts?

Marc

Frank is the Mauser expert, if he doesnt respond directly, or you get the answer from others, check with Frank via PM.

Thanks Ted... Have not heard further since posting.

This pistol is a bit puzzling. The frame doesn't look re-blued. It's crisp and sharp and has what I would expect from an original blue finish.

I'll add some pictures here. The receiver does have a deeper more shiny shade of blue, and the E/N proofed toggle train has a similar finish. The edges of the toggle are slightly smoothed, so that (and the blued safety bar and recoil link) point to a re-blue at some point.

But the pistol is in such "new" condition (Including a pristine bore) that I wonder when it was done. The barrel to receiver witness mark also doesn't lineup perfectly.

From Joop's comments on Jan Still's forum, "out of sequence" Lugers made up from obsolete replacement parts in the May 1942 timeframe are known in my serial number range, and this is likely one of them.

I wonder if the re-bluing of these parts was done as part of the process of finishing off these final Lugers from Mauser. All the marks on this pistol look like they were done with original Mauser dies.

I'm now starting work to understand details of available archival material to see if it mentions anything.

Marc

Narc,

The gun does look reblued to me, but having said that, it very nicely done...

IMHO, re-bluing in itself does not require rounding edges, scrubing stamps, erasing tool marks. The novice gunsmith takes care of that part...
On this one some parts give the appearance of having been lightly (soda?) blasted prior to bluing.
dju

dju:
I'm interested in which parts you are referring to. I do see a difference in surface texture of the top of the breech block and the extractor. Is that it?

Thanks.

Neil

shes beautiful thanks for the pics

Hi,

Thanks for observations... Yes - it does look re-blued to me also. The tone is different on the barrel / receiver / toggle train parts and the frame.

Some of the matte appearance of the parts is lighting, but the toggle train, receiver and barrel are noticeably shiny compared to the frame and trigger plate. The edges are sharper on the matte appearing parts.

Also, the toggle to recoil hook link is blued, it's retaining pin is blued and the safety sear block is blued. These parts should be in the white.

Since there is no wear on this pistol (tightest smooth receiver to frame fit, pristine bore), it makes me ask why this would have been re-finished in the first place.

Since it was likely made during a period when Mauser was gathering up parts from prior runs to complete the last military contract, I wonder if the work could have been done at Mauser as part of that process. Otherwise, why would someone re-finish an otherwise "new" pistol... If so, why only parts of it...

Marc

I have to say that I am really torn by this one. I copied the photos and did some color correction on them to account for the lighting and the color balance being shifted by the red background. Either this gun is nearly stone mint or it is one of the best reblue/restoration examples I have seen. I am leaning toward original.

Neil:
I was looking more at the sideplate. Most that I have seen show some tool marks but that one has an even frosty look. Maybe a cast replacement?
Also on the right side (second photo) of the gun the entire frame looks blasted to me, sort of a satin blue. Certainly not the same as the top of the toggle, etc.
The finish on this gun sort of reminds me of the Interarms Parabellum guns.
Now maybe I'm just not up to speed on the Mauser Banner guns.
It is very nice and easy to look at!
dju

I'm going to re-shoot pictures using improved lighting. Will post them.

I don't think that the side plate is cast. Here's a picture of the inside.

Marc

Should that trigger lever be blued? I only have rust blue guns at my immediate disposal, but they are all in the white. Also could you photo the finish on the trigger and surrounding areas, particularly the right side?
Thanks!
dju

:cheers:

For Ron Wood,

Ron, I based what I must emphasize as my OPINION on this "reproduction" on the original photos and was less concerned with the color correction as I was with what appears to be mildly rounded edges (rear toggle link bevels, upper receiver in the chamber area chamfers, sideplate edges ... and the lack of serial number halos on the frame... I have been wrong before, but I don't think so this time. YMMV... A first hand evaluation might tell a different story...

-John

It looks real nice to me,but then I am into DWM as you know
they are rust blued,so can't help on this one.
Thanks George

Hi John, I wouldn't expect to see halos on a salt blued gun like this one. Regards, Norm

With the blued white parts, witness marks and overall appearance my vote is for a nice reblue. If a bunch more of these show up may have to retract the reblue but not for now. Bill

Souldn't the sideplate trigger lever and pin be in the white on an original blued Mauser?

In looking at the color corrected photos, most of the contours and edges look pretty good. The thing I find most disconcerting is what David pointed out, the "satin" appearance of the frame, particularly on the right side. But it doesn't show up nearly as satin on some of the close up shots so I don't know what to think. Sure would like to have gun in hand. Perhaps photos taken on a neutral background in natural light might help.

I still feel that the "scallops" on each side of the receiver behind the barrel lack the crisp, sharp edges that an original, factory blued gun would have. Just enough is missing to indicate a careful rebluing.

I'd really like to see close ups of the trigger area, right side. To me it look way too evenly finished to be an orig. finish.
This is kind of fun...
dju

Hi Jerry, Here's a sideplate on a 42 byf. I'm reserving judgement pending better photos. Best regards, Norm

How is the muzzle? I guess Mauser Luger's muzzle is like their Broom, in white. And a new gun like this, the muzzle should still have fine machining circles visible....

New Photos Mauser 42 Banner 715g
 

Hi, I'm attaching several new photos of Mauser "42" Banner 715g...

In fact, there are several small parts that should be in the white that are blued on this Luger. Including... Firing pin; firing pin spring guide; trigger plate pin; safety sear block bar; toggle recoil link; it's pin...

I've tried to light this so that the metal's grain is visible, and tried to give a good rendition of the actual finish condition. These are not retouched, and were photographed using indirect soft daylight balanced florescent lights used for video production.

I've got higher resolution photos (4x) should more detail be needed.

Additional Photos 715g
 

Additional Photos...

Additional Photos 715g
 

More...

More and Magazine
 

A few more...

Hi Marc, It looks good to me. I think it was assembled from parts anytime between 1942 and the end of hostilities, and that all the components were thrown in the bluing tank, regardless. Remember, Mauser was still assembling Lugers from parts after the war, when the factory was under French control. Regards, Norm
P.S. Nice photos.

Alvin, The rust blued Mauser Lugers have the front of the muzzle in the white, but they were blued on these salt blued pistols...

Norm, the combination of high condition, proper number die stamps, out of sequence toggle train and odd bluing made me wonder if it could have been one of those done late war (after Mauser conversion to the P-38) or when in French control. Also possibly one of those "made" for returning GIs at Oberndorf. That could also explain why someone wanted to "improve" the appearance of new parts.

I'll certainly be on the lookout for any background on this period.

Marc

Marc, I don't have Mauser Luger in my collection, no hand-on experience on it.

I just looked up Don's book "Mauser Parabellums 1930-1946", page 335 shows a commercial pistol, chamber date 42, s/n 8267y, it has white muzzle.

Oops... Alvin, I stand corrected. I'm away from my books, but checked my 1938, and the muzzle is in the white.

So, that's likely conclusive that the cannon was completely re-blued.

Upon inspection, looks like the trigger plate pin was broken off at some point. The broken off area of the pin is also blued, so the entire part got salt blued as a unit.

This lends more credence to end of war or post war finishing and assembly, since I doubt that the WaAmt would have accepted one with a broken pin.

So... probably post war, new parts, originally blued or re-blued to improve appearance for commercial sale. Note done under French control. Probably done before commercial nitro proofing was re-established after WW-II in West Germany. Brought into the USA before 1968.

Marc

Not to be too easy, I am just a really old pup, in learning. That is a beautiful work of art.

Marc
Your pics are amazing.Great job.

My understanding is that on the Mausers made under French control,they are stamped with a small star. I have a early P38 "Grey Ghost" that has this stamp on the slide.
Bob

Hi Bob, I wasn't suggesting that this gun was made under French control. Those guns,as you said, had a five pointed star preceding the serial number. I carefully said "up to the end of hostilities". I think this gun was assembled for commercial sale after all military contracts had been filled. Regards, Norm

Incredible photo's

One MIGHTY-FINE looking Mauser... thanks for sharing.

Thanks for the compliments on the photos.

I shoot using a background of black low reflectance cloth called Duvtyne. The stage is a basic thing made up with CPVC plastic pipe and a backing board that curves from vertical to horizontal under the object being photographed.

I'm using a Nikon digital SLR with one of their fixed focal length 60mm Macro lenses. Light is a soft daylight balanced Fluorescent, and it could also be done outside in a shaded indirectly lighted area.

The dust and hair visible in some of the photos is courtesy of my Bearded Collie Dogs.

Marc

Side plate is correctly numbered - inside and out. The inside of the sideplate on WWII Mausers is one number higher than the first two numbers of the S/N - in this case one higher than the first number as it is a three-digit S/N. So "8" would be correct for the inside. As for authenticity, I can't say - only numbered correctly.

I have Mauser Banner dated 42 and serial 8300y, a fully matching and commercially proofed gun that I believe was assembled at Mauser before the end of the war with what ever parts were on hand. My gun also has some blued small parts that are normally in the white, muzzle, sideplate lever etc. I also see some almost matte areas but not as much as the subject gun. I see no sign of reblue on my gun either. Except as mentioned by others, I do believe some of the parts were re-blued by Mauser at Mauser before May 1945. Some of the stated opinions are trying to apply pre-war and mid-war rules to these late war commercial guns. In the late period the rules and practices were not so strict especially on commercial guns.

In the last pic by the cartridge ejection port...is that pin not supposed to be silverish white? If it is blued...then not normal? I think that is what mrerick was saying...Also shouldnt there be some aging on the bluing? Or is there a recorded versions...that show this correct? Just trying to increase my knowledge. It sure does look good...could this be a DDR or Berliner Polizei redo with out stampings?

A very nice Luger, but I'm with Alanint....there's subtle signs of refinish....the" borders" around the frame ears are "soft"....the biggest giveaway I see is the middle toggle piece.... look how sharp the bevel is on the back half of it, and how its smeared and rounded further forward.