Imperial proofs
 

In my notes on miscellaneous Luger facts that I have gleaned off of the forums, I have made the entry that all LP08s have breech blocks with Spandau proofs, while all barrels have Erfurt proofs, with the exception of late barrels, which have DWM proofs (no indication of when the change occurred). No good reason for this mixing of proofs has been found to date. I think this was for DWM LP08's.

What does a Spandau proof look like?

Neil

Neil, I agree that all the WW1 LPO8s that I've examined over the years have the Erfurt Eagle proof on the right side of the barrel. It's possible that since they produced the Artillery first, that they remained the sole manufacture of these barrels. TH

Thanks Tom. My artillery has the Erfurt proof on the barrel too. The proof on the breech block looks similar, but the bottom of the stamp is not clear, so I can't be sure what it is. I have not been able to find a picture of a Spandau proof, so I don't know what to look for.

Neil

here are two pics of Spandau proofs....
there were minor variations during the years...

Hi Klaus, I never realized before that early DWMs had the Spandau mark. When did DWM get it's own eagle? Here's a clearer photo for your files. Best regards, Norm

I have seen a couple of DWM LP08s with DWM barrel proofs, but the Erfurt barrels are far and away the most numerous.

Yes Ron, I only have one LP08, a 1916 DWM, and it has the Erfurt marked barrel.

Neil

Proof eagles do not "belong to" a specific manufacture. Proofing officers--and inspectors--were assigned out of the Spandau arsenal. Each officer carried his own, personally-assigned stamp. The proofing officer assigned to DWM had a stamp with a different character from the proofing officer assigned to Erfurt; however, both stamps fell within the design requirements--"an heraldic eagle, displayed"--and both stamps indicated and certified the same thing.

An individual proofing officer, of course, could not personally proof and certify the hundreds of thousands of pistols which underwent proofing. These officers had staff underlings who were also trained in the proofing process, and they used the stamp of their officer to certify proof; the officer bore ultimete personal responsibility.

DWM was a private contractor, responsible to deliver P08s which entirely met specifications. the Royal Erfurt rifle factory was a government arms manufacturer, and the 1910 marking instructions were created to guide their imspection and acceptance of the P08 in detail.

The 1910 marking instructions require each part to be inspected and certified with the inspector's stamp. All Erfurt-manufactured parts bear this mark. No LP08 barrels which bear the proof stamp of the Erfurt proof officer also have Erfurt inspection marks, which indicate that they were not made at Erfurt. Stamping of the proof was the next-to-last stage in pistol acceptance, done well after the pistol was completely assembled, so proof stamps would not have been applied to the individual parts in any case.

The presence of the Erfurt-style proof on some DWM barrels and breechbocks suggests that a member of the Erfurt proof officer's staff was assigned to DWM to assist in proofing and stamping DWM-manufactured Lugers.

--Dwight

[QUOTE=Dwight Gruber;208998]

The presence of the Erfurt-style proof on some DWM barrels and breechbocks suggests that a member of the Erfurt proof officer's staff was assigned to DWM to assist in proofing and stamping DWM-manufactured Lugers.

Thank you Dwight for the explanation!
You wrote that the Erfurt-style proof is on some DWM barrels and some breechblocks.
Almost all (I do not know 1 exaption) DWM P08 beechblocks and all DWM barrels from 1916 on have Erfurt-style proofs. In late 1918 are some exaptions. But all LP08 breechblocks have Spandau proofs. Do you have an idea of an explanation please?
I am trying to get an answe for this question since years.
Thanks Klaus

Klaus,

I do not understand "Spandau proofs"??

--Dwight

Dwight- you used the words “Erfurt style proof” for the power proof stamps (Beschussstempel in German) on all Erfurt Lugers and the breech blocks and barrels on the DMW Lugers 1915-1918.
The "Spandau proofs" are the power proof stamps on the DWM Lugers until 1915. As you reports above came the "Abnahmebeamte" Proofing officers and inspectors for the DWM Lugers from the Spandau Arsenal. And that was the reason that I used the words Spandau proofs.
Regards Klaus

Is this Spandau 'squirrel'? it looks like a DWM one :)

Q1: Does Spandau proof always come with Spandau toggle link?
Q2: Gortz and Walter said "surely.... Spandau guns were caninibalized from damaged guns during a time of great stress -- the great Spring Offensive of 1918".... no further explanation in the article though.... why 1918?

===
Initially, I guessed samples having 1918 on chamber.... but on second thought, that does not explain why only 1918 guns were damaged.

It is the Spandau Power proof.
Spandau Inspecotor proofs are the crown/ gotic letter acceptance stamps as on the added picture.
I think that my English is too bad to write about the acceptance stamps.
Sorry
Klaus

All DWM Lugers were proofed by inspectors which were stationed in Spandau. Spandau is a small city near Berlin where the DWM Lugers were made.
Answer for Q1: The Spandau proof we are talking about has nothing to do with the Spandau toggle

This is an epiphany. I suddenly realize the point that Klaus is trying to make and see its relevance to the comments made by Dwight Gruber regarding the itinerate inspectors of military arms.

We collectors are used to referring to inspector’s marks on military Lugers of that period as being “Erfurt” or “DWM”, but in reality the proper designation of these marks should be “military acceptance” only and be relegated to the production facility to which they are associated.

Erfurt was a government arsenal producing military Lugers, so they rightfully had their own government employed military inspectors for their products. DWM, on the other hand, was a commercial firm producing weapons for the government. It follows that DWM should not be in the position of “accepting” their own products for the government. Therefore, there had to be a government entity that performed this function…to wit, the Spandau arsenal that was in proximity to the DWM production facility in Berlin. This implies that there are no DWM military inspector’s marks or proofs.

Therefore, it is evident that all military Lugers that were produced by DWM would necessarily bear “Spandau” inspector’s marks and proofs (as opposed to "DWM"). Consequently, the LP08 barrels produced by Erfurt bear the “Erfurt” power proof, and those very few LP08 barrels manufactured by DWM bear the “Spandau” power proof.

Hope I got that right :).

Am I correct then that there is no such thing as a DWM Proof?

Neil

Evidently not for guns produced under military contract. For military guns produced by DWM the "proofs" (inspector marks and firing/"power" proof) are Spandau markings according to Klaus. This makes sense as DWM as a private commercial enterprise should not have been in the position to "accept" their own products for the military. This requires us to get our head around a different terminology. "DWM" proofs would apply for commercial guns "proofed" by DWM in-house procedures. Miiltary guns, on the other hand would have "Spandau" proofs applied by government/military personnel.

Rich,
"Power" proof is what we would call a "firing proof" (the overload test)...same thing, different terminology.

Are there then any DWM proprietary proofs for any commercial models?

I am not aware of any. The Crown/N proof would have been applied according to German proof laws and would not be proprietary to DWM, as would firearms produced for commercial sales by any other German weapon manufacturer.

Your English is exellent.. thank you for the flowers, but I am feeling that it is terrible because I know how much work and problems are for me to write that what I mean in English and as we can see nobady tried to anwer my question about the different power proof stamps on the DWM lugers.
Yes I mean with power proof stamps the test proof.

Ron thanks a lot for your help and work!

I remember that I wrote an article about the German proof law and the acceptance stamps in German on luger gunboards but nobody could translate it into English. If I would try to translate it I would make too much mistakes.

Klause, Dwight and Ron, thanks much for this lesson. It was very informative. John

Thank you Klaus, Dwight and Ron for all of the information. I am really glad that my question provoked this extensive discussion. My initial question was answered and I learned a lot more than I asked for. I guess that there is a little more room in this old brain for more info, but I'd better write it down quickly.:)

Thanks again (hopefully I didn't miss any contributors).

Neil

Proof or acceptance marks
 

Can anyone enumerate these marks from my "Spandau" Luger?

I can't tell you what the marks mean but I can tell you you have lit a firestorm with this pix. I did not realise that you have this Luger for sale when I first posted. Well we shall see what happens.

Check out this link
 

http://forum.lugerforum.com/showthread.php?t=16983

More pix

In the first picture, the rightmost stamp is the Imperial Erfurt Rifle Factory power-proof eagle, displayed wtih cross and chalice.

The stamp next left is the final acceptance stamp.

Next is the final assembly aceptance.

Fourth to the left is the inspection stamp certifying receiver hardness and date stamp. Above it is the crown/RC stamp of the Revisons-Commission, accepting a part wihch is out-of-specification in some non-critical manner.

The final two marks are meaningless within the context of the official P08 marking specifications. The forms of the crowns themselves differ from contemporary design in that the base of the crown is an oval, rather than the flat baseline of known inspector stamp crowns (this is also the case for the crown above the K on the center toggle). The design of these spurious crowns appears to emulate the design of the "Spandau" toggle mark.

It is noteworthy that the proof eagle of the Imperial Spandau Rifle Factory does not appear anywhere on the pistol.

The serif Roman K of the toggle proof is an anachronism. The Frakture typeface was the official typeface of the German Empire, and was in constant use through the Weimar years. Its use was officially discouraged in 1934, but it was not banned outright until 1941.

The only prescribede use for a Roman letter on the exterior of the P08 was the Roman A signifying Auschuss (rejected).

--Dwight

Klaus,

Thanks for the clarification. In the weeks since your post I have done some further research on the subject of proof marks. The Prussian Imperial Rifle Factories in Spandau, Erfurt, and Danzig each had their own characteristic pattern of the Heraldic Eagle, displayed. The Imperial Rifle Factories of other German states had their own, non-eagle, characteristic marks.

DWM's contract for P08 production was entered into with the Spandau factory, which was responsible for certification and proof.

--Dwight

If not completely spurious, I'd say a rework of a previously issued Erfurt PO8. TH

Hi Fred, Most collectors nowadays believe that ALL Spandau Lugers are fakes. While there are still a few believers out there, the market value of these guns has been severely diminished. I'd love to see a straight up photo of the middle toggle, in the picture you posted it looks like the word Spandau is slanted. Regards, Norm

I'll get a better pix later today after chores. I was hunting through my computer checking old passwords when I found the one for the Luger Forum. I came back to check if anything new on a Spandau. I decided back in '07 to never sell the pistol. Fake or not, it is unique and quite a conversation piece. Many thanks to Dwight...

better shot of toggle
 

Yes, the name stamp IS slanted

Here is some detective work on a Spandau
 

This is from Guns and Hunting, March 1965. I got this copy from Ralph Shattuck. I would dearly love to find an original copy.

From this article, my number 27 might be authentic??

This might change a few minds....

I will NOT sell this gun without removing a cloud cast upon it.

ANY opinions are welcome. This makes for a fun conversation.

Hi Fred, Thanks for posting that toggle photo. In addition to the slanted SPANDAU, the toggle is missing the bevels on it's sides, which indicates that it was ground down to remove an existing ERFURT stamp (see photo). I know this is small consolation to you, given the amount you have invested in this piece, but I think it's a wonderful relic of the golden age of Luger fakery, when forgers and boosters roamed the earth, boldly going where no man had gone before.
Best regards, Norm

Also please note the very small space, (distance) between the Crown and the word "Spandau"on the alledgedly authentic examples in the article versus the larger space on the example being discussed.

I have always heard and read that no Spandau's have been found except in the US. Is this a fact? Hope Klaus gets in this discussion. Must admit they are interesting but my bet is on fake. Bill

"SPANDAU" on the toggle is clearly pantographed.

--Dwight

Thanks Norme for your observation, however I must play devil's advocate and point out that not all toggles have the bevel. See example in attached picture. I just grabbed the Luger under my desk and took the pix. Personal defense weapon. Nothing special about it. I will dig some out of the vault and see if there are more flat examples.


Also, if the toggle had been ground down, there would be a difference in thickness and also detectable "dishing" from the ground down area. There is none. The toggle is absolutely flat...period. It has been been examined with a micrometer and a microscope for tool marks.

Dwight suggests that the "stamp" has been "Pantographed".

Several years ago, when I first brought up my pistol, someone requested that I remove the whitening from the word Spandau. I am going to do this and examine the interior of the "stamp" and let you folks know what I find. IF, the stamp was a pantograph, what was it copied from??? Although the stamp is slightly slanted, why is it identical to the "authenticated" Spandau's in Middleman's article. I disagree that the distances are different. I have only a copy of a copy of a copy of the article. That is why I want a copy of the original article. Those photographs can be measured more accurately.

Now comes the request for suggestions on how to remove the whitening without effecting the surrounding metal or causing any abrasion to the stamp or surrounding area. I don't want to do anything which could affect the inspection of the stamp area.

Many thanks for all input. All opinions are welcome.

Fred Pack

One definite difference between my pistol and the poorly copied toggles in the article is the figure 2 (two). It is different between example #1 in Mr. Middleman's article, and Norm's example.

Is my pistol's figure 2 (on the toggle) consistent with German usage of the period?

Fred