Help 1916 Navy Luger
 

Hello,

I have been offered this Navy Luger. The seller says that it is all original with the exception of the Mag.
Opinions will be appreciated.

http://i213.photobucket.com/albums/c...uvio/navy3.jpg
http://i213.photobucket.com/albums/c...uvio/navy2.jpg
http://i213.photobucket.com/albums/c...uvio/navy1.jpg
http://i213.photobucket.com/albums/c...uvio/Navy9.jpg
http://i213.photobucket.com/albums/c...ONA/navy11.jpg
http://i213.photobucket.com/albums/c...ONA/navy10.jpg
http://i213.photobucket.com/albums/c...TONA/navy8.jpg
http://i213.photobucket.com/albums/c...TONA/navy7.jpg
http://i213.photobucket.com/albums/c...TONA/Navy6.jpg
http://i213.photobucket.com/albums/c...TONA/Navy5.jpg
http://i213.photobucket.com/albums/c...TONA/navy4.jpg

pictures, serial number, other information?


Ed

Sorry ED, problems with uploading pictures.

Well, your first four pictures are not viewable; however, the last seven are viewable.

Mauser720 - Ron

I would bet this is a reblued pistol. The front grip strap sure looks like it. The trigger or the mag release both look blued not strawed.
The holster is a CMR repro. The straw on the takedown lever looks sparkling new. Sorry not much to say positive...I would check this one out carefully.
Jerry Burney

You don't have to be the expert that Jerry Burney is to see that the holster is new.

The serial number and the proof mark on the barrel are awfully shallow. That suggests that the barrel has possibly been reworked.

The picture that high lights the mag shows that maybe the front strap on the gun has been polished.

Can't say much about the take down lever except that it looks like it might have a flat top surface. The serial number looks good. Thats all good, but not good enough.

I hate it when the important marking are whitened. It looks nice but it could hide a bunch of important things like the halo around certain markings.

I don't want to comment on the strawing or markings on the left side of the gun. Not enough pictures and the camera lighting could hide the true color of the strawing and the authenticity of the markings.

We need more pictures of the left side of the gun to see the markings, side plate, take down lever and so forth. Basically, the photograghy is nice, but its not the pictures that are needed to judge this navy Luger.
But, just off the cuff, I would guess that this gun is really a navy thats been messed with. :(
Big Norm

Thank you, as always your help is appreciated.

Hello Antonio,

Could you provide photos of the following :

1. C/M proofs along the left side of the receiver flat.

2. Close-up photo of the "1916" date that is stamped on the left side frame rail.

3. The rear toggle pin when the toggle action is pulled back to its rear-most position.

Thank you.

The gun has been re-done, but it appears to have been done a long time ago. The magazine proof is not original.

Tom A

Vesuvio,
both Pete and Tom are correct. But, just for clarification purposes only, Pete's above #3 request is that he wants to see the size of the heads flange on the rear toggle pin. The rear heads flange size on a navy Luger is noticably larger that the heads flange on a P-08. So, if that flange is of the smaller size but still fits the receiver, then the gun hasn't just been messed with, its a counterfeit. If that is so, then you have to get into a whole bunch of other things regarding that rear toggle and its sight. More than likely, if there is a fault, it will be that the rear toggle pin would the P-08 pin and you would see a poor fitting on that flange. Its not uncommon for a Lugers toogle pin to accidentilly drop out some time during its long life time.

As for pictures, I would like to add to Pete's list a little. Maybe the serial number on the extractor, the front and rear grip straps, the serial number on the side plate...Oh Geez, give us all you can get. But don't be surprized if we all agree that this gun has just been messed with a lot. If you want a shooter, then price it accordingly.
Big Norm

The gun is not in my possession. The pictures were sent to me by the seller in Texas. If anyone is interested, I can forward you his contact info.

Tom A.,

Following up on your reblue comment :

1. Should we expect to see "halo" around the C/M proof on the barrel (and around the SN, as well) ?

http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload...rrel_copy1.jpg

2. Is there anything around the rear sight that indicates a reblue ?

http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/navy_toggle.jpg


There is a lesson here...in which a reblued gun done many, many years ago will gain its natural patina and oxidation with enough time...

Antonio,

If the gun is still an honest M1914 Navy Luger...but one just refinished many years ago...you might still consider a purchase.

This assumes your seller will admit it is not factory-original finish and he/she is willing to re-price the piece.

Additional photos from the seller about the areas I pointed out and that Bug Norm also asked for would help you and others determine if this M1914 is really a legit gun (albiet refinished).

With honest Navy Lugers getting up in price (over $ 4500 and more), finding an nice honest one with a Weimar-period refinish may not be a bad thing...especially if you could negotiate a decent price.

You may not want to give up the gun's location and seller info. so quickly...;)

Pete,

I just did a quick survey of an assortment of 6 1906 Navy pistols in my office and on all 6, there was a distinct halo areound the Barrel SN, in only 2 of the 6 was the halp discernable on the barrel C/M and 4 had haloing around frame SN.

As far as the sight in your second picture, there appears to be uneven wear on the inner aspect of the left knob that looks to my old eyes like it has been blued over.

And your comment about patina on old re-finishes is right on the money.

Tom A

The seller will not offer a 3 day inspection and some other things he said made me walk away from the deal. He wants $2,900 for the piece.

What is the name of the seller in Texas...???

Ian Campbell or Don Fischer or another...???

This gun was sold and pictures posted by the new owner on Wher. com

Lots of thinking on market behavior here.

In a market that an honest reblued gun goes to $4, why the seller bother to depict his reblued piece being original and ask $2.9....

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...?Item=88989144

Alvin,
good question. The seller has a lot of courage or stupidity (whatever) in offering this gun (on GB) without a reserve price along with the innovative discount offer. But it seems to have worked out for him. (Thats confidence) There's still about an hour left in the bidding. Now it gets a little exciting. I love it when people go crazy in their bidding during the last hour. Just so long as I am not one of the people caught up in the bidding. I think that I'll pour myself an adult beverage, put my feet up on my computer table and think about the hand wrangling thats going on with the bidders right now. Maybe I'll comment on this Luger when the bidding ends.
Big Norm :typing:

gents,

I know the individual who is selling the piece and who did the restoration. He is an Eastern European, rather recently arrived and is a very competent and honest gunsmith. He is still learning his trade in restoration and understands that honesty is a good thing. He has *great* potential and once he works out a few things from the standpoint of finishing technique, he has the potential to rank along with the Gale Morgans of the world. All it takes is time, talent, discipline, study, time, talent, study, time and talent.

He does great work for what he charges.

Tom A

Tom,
the guy should also have a sideline in photography. His pictures were pretty good too. Other sellers of Lugers should see what was displayed here and copy it in showing their wares.
Big Norm

OK, the auctions over and Snowman got it. Not the late auction action that I was looking for so I am going to finish my adult beverage and go to bed. But first, my comment, the seller mentioned "Perfect Mirror Like Bore". A 90 year old Luger that needs restoration has a perfect bore? Not likely. Possible barrel replacement. Then there is the arm of the thumb safety that looks like it is flat (maybe too much metal removed?). Ok, the seller did say that the Luger was restored. Then there is that ring around the tip of the barrel. I can't figure that one out. The rough checkering of the grips. OK, the seller did say that they weren't numbered to the gun and the gun is restored. The only serious thing here then is the mint bore and that always sets alarms off in my head.
Big Norm

Norm,

Maybe the original barrel is still there...but shot out and was relined...so you would have a "mint bore" in that case...

http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload...avy_barrel.jpg http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload...rrel_copy2.jpg

The barrel has been removed and it looks like a liner put in, did a great job. Look closely at the muzzle you will see a thin lineâ??flange I think. Then the ware mark at the breach is from a barrel wrench and putting the barrel back on. Darn wrenches!

He had to touch up a few of the markings after refinishing too, but a very very good job.

I am glad he got a good price.

Vern

Good point Pete and Vern. I shoulda thought of it when I noticed the ring around the tip on the barrel. Its been a long time since I've seen a relined barrel. But the ring on the tip of the barrel is pretty close to the outside of the barrel. I would have expected the relining to show on the muzzle instead. Maybe someone can straighten me out on this one.

I still think that this is a pretty high price to pay for this particular gun. The bidders got carried away.
Big Norm

I am sorry to post unrelated stuffs in this thread of topic. Last one in this topic -- Here is a PDF I found on the Web regarding how to value a restored gun:

https://store.bluebookinc.com/Info/P...tofValuing.pdf

Back to the gun that started this Navy discussion...

The saga of this "Navy" and the next buyer in-line continues over on Jan Still's Gun Boards :

http://luger.gunboards.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=13962