Everything depends on what the whiting is, but most are easily removed with a toothbrush and gun oil

Not sure how you could damage it unless you used something sharp and hard like metal?

Sorry but I mis-spelled the author of the article Mr. Mittleman. I am incorrect in one post, the distances between what is on my toggle and Mr. Mittleman's article ARE different. The distances are different in the two "supposed authentic" lugers themselves as well as what is on mine. All three are different. I'm really curious about the "curly" figure 2 on mine. While the figure 2 on mine is the first number 27...the figure 2 on the pictorial example is the second number.

If these pistols were not mass production items, it is entirely possible that each could be a little different.

Food for thought???

Hi Fred you can use a product called Break Free applied with a toothbrush or, if necessary a toothpick, to remove the whiting. It won't harm the finish. I've also used Hoppe's #9 with equally good results.
I don't own a Spandau, but I'm a not an entirely disinterested party. I bought a fake Navy from the same dealer who sold you you're gun. The general consensus nowadays is that all, and I repeat, all, Spandau Lugers are fakes, including the ones in Mr Mittleman's article. Jan C. Still devoted a couple of pages to Spandaus in "Imperial Lugers", 1991, but doesn't mention them in "Central Powers",2007.
Kind regards, Norm

Hi Norm, I didn't get mine directly from Schattuck. I bought mine from a fellow in Oregon who had purchased a collection. I got the Mittleman article from Schattuck when I contacted him....after I had purchased it. Ralph asked which number I had, and stated that it was "good" and that he had owned it at one time.

Darn sorry you got bit on a Navy. I bought some stock in the Brooklyn Bridge once too <VBG>.

Although the general consensus is all Spandau's are fakes, to the best of my knowledge (and please correct me if I am wrong) nobody has definitively proved that they were never made.

People for years vowed that the earth was flat.

Best regards to all...

Fred

A very high quality scan of the original magazine article would be fine..BUT...the original intact magazine would be my first choice.
Are you teasing, or do you have the magazine?

My searches for the magazine have come up empty, but similar issues are asking $10-12.00.
If, when you get the mag, it contains what I posted earlier...$25...and you ship it.

Fred

Sure would be nice to see a readable scan of the article! Don't want to cut Fred out of owning the magazine, but I would like to read the article.

IF, the stamp was a pantograph, what was it copied from???

It could have been copied from a rifle?

I think it would be great if everyone here had access to a high quality scan of the article...

Never, never stop learning....

"I had no shoes and complained. Then I met a man with no feet."

Got to go feed my horses..and pick up the "leftovers"... Fred

CJS...yep it could have been a rifle for the word SPANDAU, but not for the proof marks...

Hi Fred,
The pic of the DWM toggle in your post #41 clearly shows bevels on the sides. The toggle on the "Spandau" does not. There would be no "dishing" if the toggle was ground/filed/sanded down flat across the entire surface. There are no Luger variations that I've ever heard of which don't have bevels on the forward toggle.
Your "Spandau" toggle also shows "steps" not found on other toggles. This is also another indication that the "new" surface is lower than the original.

About pantographing the Spandou, It would be easy enough for any graphic artist to "create" or draw the word and the crown for the panotgraph machine to follow.

I'd bet those toggles don't show remnants of prexisting bevels and the "steps".

Page 216 of the Luger Book has a Top view of the whole pistol and toggle unit of another Spandau if one is curious.

gonna take a closer look at the area you circled. I looked before and found no "steps" but want to take a second look...

I will try and get some close up pix of area you circled and post..

It would be great if patronen would scan and post the pix on PP207...I don't have the book..

Fred

Meant to type pp 216..

I do...But it's not a great photo...

I don't have a scanner, but may be able to photograph it sometime tommorrow and post.

Are all "Spandau" Lugers 1918 chamber dated?

Hi Doug, There is a 1917 Spandau illustrated in "Imperial Lugers" by Jan C. Still. Regards, Norm

which area are you folks referring to as the bevel?
 

Red or Blue???

The blue lines would be the toggle bevel. Any lines past the knuckle where the red lines are pointing would indicatre that the top surface of the toggle had been machined down and the lines would represent the '"edge" where the original and new toggle surfaces met.

You would think that if any 'mechanic' had machined down the toggle, he would have known that... :confused:

There's a simple way to determine, once and for all, if this toggle has been ground. Just measure the damn thing! An unground Erfurt toggle is 7.65mm (0.300") deep at it's mid-point. If Fred's toggle is about 1/4 mm less than that, it's been ground. Regards, Norm

Hi Rich, My figure of 7.65mm is based on actual measurement, using a Helios vernier caliper (a relic of my engineering school days). It represents the average, after discarding the highest and lowest, of a sample of 1 gun (I'm sorry, I only own one late war Erfurt). I do own several DWM's, and if I wasn't going out to a party tonight, there is nothing I would like better than to spend an evening field stripping them so that I could measure their toggles. Cheers, Norm

A Toggle Party?

I think I may have settled the issue
 

I field stripped #27 and tried to check for marks under the toggle as suggested in the article by Mittleman. My dentist's mirror didn't work so I re-assembled it. I didn't want to remove the hinge pin.
Then I started experimenting with different light sources. When using a polarized light, an extremely slight slope from the knuckle became visible. I could not detect it with the micrometer that I have, but could now see it.
Also a possible 2nd step, on the left side, became visible.

I hope, of course, that I didn't get bit with a fake...but from what I can now see, and with extra experience and help from you folks...
I am afraid I bought a fake...

Take a look at the pix and let me know your opinions please..

Does anyone know of any other examples where the toggle has been altered/manufactured in this form. Is this now detectable "slope" normal. I don't think so, but hoping I am wrong...

Thanks to all for your suggestions and input.

Have a happy Toggle Party Norm..

Fred

It's Page 79 and 80 of Imperial Lugers that show the examples of Spandau's if anyones curious for quick reference.

The one in the Luger Book will not photograph well to be of any use of detail to study. Rich's scan is about as good as it would get unless you have the book. 2 interesting things about the Spandau in The Luger Book compared to the 2 in Imperial Lugers on 79 and 80 both a 1917 and a 1918, is that gun is a 1918 with no LP08 style frame cut and lacks the marking towards the back of the toggle by the rear sight.

Wish I had a really precision micrometer...

Fred

there is also a deeper step just rearward of the 27 stamping on this toggle also. that deep of a step also indicates the flat of the toggle has been reworked/reduced,

Removed white stuff
 

The deeper step, rearward of the #27 is noted as being larger than most...BUT NOT ALL.

I wonder at the possibility that Spandau may have ground down another toggle to put their name on it. I am going to have to get access to a precision micrometer and measure.

I cleaned out just the letter P, as gun oil and gun butter didn't seem to affect the white. Even tried using an electric toothbrush on it. No go... It finally softened enough to pick the white out with a needle......very carefully.

To my untrained eye, the letter appears stamped, not tooled.
Take a look and see what you think.

best shot to show the edges of the letter
 

Letter P only has been cleaned

I agree with Dwight... 'Spandau' was pantographed. All the lines are the same width and have rounded ends.

I don't think you can use the 'slant' at the front edge of the toggle flat as a determining factor; here is a pic of my Erfurt toggle showing a similar 'slant' at the front...No 'step', but a definite 'slant'...

...And, FWIW, this Erfurt toggle measures .310" at the midpoint...

(And has bevels!) :D

FWIW, all of the known Spandaus were at one location in the early 90's. I saw them at the NAPCA meeting in Midland-Odessa. They were all grouped together from what I remember but I wasn't around for any discussion, if there was any at all. There may have been a write up discussion in the Automag.

There are several Gunboards threads linked in this post referring to that 'meeting'...

http://forum.lugerforum.com/showthread.php?t=28887

It is interesting that the "Spandau" Lugers were displayed by dealers...i.e., for sale...And that the one 'Spandau' generally accepted as genuine was not there...

Anyway, for your consideration, is the one toggle I have [an Erfurt] with lettering...You can see that the letters have square ends rather than rounded ends...Rounded ends indicate a rotary engraving tool, rather than a fixed stamp or die...

(The 'slant' shows as well)

postino,

Thanks for the links, interesting reading.

Well, the jury is in.
It seems that I have been able to accomplish what Clint Eastwood suggested at the Republican Convention :crying::crying:

A little poorer, and a little wiser, but nobody can purloin my sense of humor. :roflmao:

Many, many thanks to all that helped solve this issue.

My database of weapons now indicate "Spandau Probable Fake".

Final statement: May the fleas of 10,000 Camels infest the crotch of the SOB that faked this gun.

Anybody want to buy some stock in the Brooklyn Bridge?

Best regards to all,

Fred

Cheer up Fred, you are not alone. At least a dozen "Spandaus" were fabricated and some surely reside in the collections of Luger Forum members. I guess they are too embarrassed to own up to them. As President Kennedy famously said, "Victory has a thousand Fathers, defeat is an orphan". Best regards, Norm

there are several photos of spandau rifles on the internet in which you can see the type of crown and the stamped lettering used on rifles of the same time period. here some example. is it reasonable to think the factory would use a different style of crown on lugers, if they made them or reworked them? the style of the crown on the rifles does change over the years but the 1918 rifle has a most unique crown. one that not appear on the lugers from 1918?

http://www.google.com/imgres?hl=en&c...r:8,s:12,i:142

http://www.google.com/imgres?start=2...59&tx=62&ty=42

http://www.google.com/imgres?hl=en&c...67&tx=50&ty=91