d'armes & cycles de-Saint etienne Luger

[Dwight Gruber]

Originally Posted by cirelaw

... All of the toe tag assumptions are based on what is written or claimed to be written a singular magazine article that we cannot access or read ourselves...

The publication can be bought, and you can read it if you read French.

Originally Posted by cirelaw

...What if any other sources support your conclusion that all French has toe tags or lack Is wrong! They were retailer marking Or inventory numerals for sellers inventory retailer directions...

We are only talking about "Manufacture Française d'Armes & Cycles de Saint-Etienne" retailer pistols here.

Originally Posted by cirelaw

...I don't believe Brad Simpson would never knowingly sell fakes without your toe tags believing like yourself that those were fakes! Bobs Simpson of whom I contacted last year on this very issue!None! None of his French for sale didn't in response to my inquiry a few year didn't.

I don't believe that about Brad, either. The understanding about the toe number has become a hot topic only fairly recently, concerns a relatively obscure variation, and is not prominent in most people's consciousness. More to be said about this, below.

Originally Posted by cirelaw

...Can we finally agree that not all legit French lugers had post production inventory numerical tags displayed

No we cannot. All Manufacture Francaise d'Armes & Cycles de Saint-Etienne retailer pistols without a toe number are by definition fake.

Originally Posted by cirelaw

...What about the underside with several French proofs and a beautiful halo including French markings...

What French proofs are you talking about? I see only the standard German c/B,U,G proof marks, the shield-with-diagonal which is a normal DWM inspector's mark found commonly on Lugers of this era, and the serial number.

There would in fact be no need for French proofs, as France was one of the countries signatory to the agreement by which some European countries accepted each others proofs.

Originally Posted by cirelaw

A common sense argument is the question, Why would a Frenchman nor forger who did such beautiful unique and valuable work or forgery and then the creator forgets to include the most important part and forgetfully ad a tag number that is so obvious??

Because they didn't know, or didn't believe that their victim would know, or didn't have the appropriate stamps handy, or just didn't care.

I think that we can look forward to seeing new Manufacture Francaise d'Armes & Cycles de Saint-Etienne fakes with toe numbers (or old fakes with new number stamps added), partly as a result of these conversations.

Originally Posted by cirelaw

...Clearly, a forgery would be costlier! Add 4 numbers and it magically legit! Is this your only concern!

No, it is not.

There are three primary determiners of Manufacture Française d'Armes & Cycles de Saint-Etienne authenticity:

1. The serial number range, determined by the years in which the pistol was advertised in the Manufacture Française d'Armes & Cycles de Saint-Etienne catalog;

2. The inventory toe number;

3. The barrel inscription.

The first indicator that one is looking at a French variation New Model Parabellum is the barrel inscription. Very unfortunately, just having a barrel which says Manufacture Francaise d'Armes & Cycles de Saint-Etienne is not enough.

The authentic Manufacture Française d'Armes & Cycles de Saint-Etienne is roll-die impressed. It is never engraved. The letter forms have some distinctive characteristics, and the inscription is proper French spelling.

It is necessary to examine the French retailer stamp very closely, and in scrupulous detail, to determine its authenticity. Simply by seeing the pistol as Manufacture Francaise d'Armes & Cycles de Saint-Etienne stamped, and then stating that such a pistol without a toe number can be authentic anyway, is insufficient.

--Dwight