Unusual Rear Toggle Link - MYSTERY SOLVED

Luke · 06-23-2005, 08:15 AM

Can anyone identify this type rear toggle link?

Thanks,
Luke

John Sabato · 06-23-2005, 08:43 AM

Strictly a hunch Luke... but because of the type of knurling on the toggle knobs, and a dull military rather than a high polish commercial finish, I would have to say that this looks a Swiss Luger toggle to me...

Anyone got any other ideas???

Navy · 06-23-2005, 09:20 AM

If the knob center hole is campfered as they appear, it is a Krieghoff piece; if they are not, I don't have a clue

Tom A

Luke · 06-23-2005, 10:18 AM

Tom -

The knob center holes are cleanly chamfered on both sides.

Interesting that is is a Krieghoff. That's the last thing I would have suspected, but I have zero experience with Krieghoffs.

The part has no proof marks, inspector stamps, or serial numbers that I can find.

Thanks.

Luke

Pete Ebbink · 06-23-2005, 11:07 AM

Luke,

I am not convinced it is an HK part...adding a chamfer in the holes would be easy enough to do.

Where are the parallel lines running down the sides of the "knobs" on this piece...???

See this photo that John D. posted of his 1938 HK in the Member's Gallery :

John Sabato · 06-23-2005, 12:00 PM

The lack of that knurling on the sides was the basis of my guess that the toggle was Swiss in origin... and not Krieghoff...

Pete, can you post a similar photo to Luke's of a Swiss made representative toggle?

thanks...

Pete Ebbink · 06-23-2005, 12:05 PM

Hi John,

No dicing/knurling at all on M1929 Bern toggles...smooth as a baby's behind :

The M1906/24 W+F Bern is just like the DWM knobs :

Pete Ebbink · 06-23-2005, 12:18 PM

Luke...

My guess..maybe a Sarco, Inc. replacement part...???

John Sabato · 06-23-2005, 01:30 PM

or maybe even an East German replacement Part?

Luke · 06-23-2005, 01:47 PM

I sent Tom Heller a picture of this link, and he suggested that it was probably from a post-war Mauser. Tom is always right about these things, but I wondered if - possibly - there might be another Luger type where they were used. I can't find a picture like this in my Luger library, but I am still looking.

Luke

ken d · 06-23-2005, 09:22 PM

Luke:

Some Mauser Parabellums' 29/70 had a similar toggle although the one
I have is not chamfered.

Regards Ken D

Luke · 06-23-2005, 09:42 PM

Ken -

Do you have a detailed top-view picture of your Parabellum?

Thanks,
Luke

ken d · 06-24-2005, 06:00 PM

Luke:

Sorry I have an old computer operating on windows 95 with no
picture capability. Picture in" LUGER" by John Walter, page 132, but not
very clear.

Regards Ken D

Vlim · 06-24-2005, 07:01 PM

Hi,

The 1972 version I have indeed lacks the stripes but does have a small line running parallel to the toggle ring sides, just where on an original the lines would stop. The center holes are straight.

So it doesn't quite match the toggle piece shown by Luke.

Luke · 06-24-2005, 07:03 PM

Hello Gerben,

Thank you. I have found the toggle you describe in some of my books, but have been unable to find a picture of the type I displayed in this string.

This must be a RARE and, therefore, extremely valuable part . . . not.

Luke

Luke · 06-24-2005, 07:24 PM

Hello Ken D - - -

Thanks anyway. As it turns out, that's the one Walter book I don't have.
As I mentioned in my reply to Gerben, I have found some pictures, but they all have a fine line where the original "checkering" would have ended. This part does not have that fine line.

Still a mystery.

Regards,
Luke

Lugerdoc · 06-25-2005, 07:47 AM

Gerben, If your toggle has a hole on top for an axel retaining pin, it is proably DDR production. If not, it is probably for a Mauser Parabellum, as the M29 Swiss, which are similar, usually bear the full serial number of the gun and a Swiss proof. The DDr rear links also have finer checkering (5 lines below the hole, as only 3 lines on the Parabellum) than the post war Mausers. Tom

Vlim · 06-25-2005, 08:52 AM

Hi Tom,

It's not my toggle

Interesting that you mention DDR reproduction toggle pieces. Never realized they also produced completely new parts, apart from the barrels and springs.

A German-proofed Mauser Parabellum would indeed have a proof mark on the top of the rear toggle.

Could the piece pictured be a scandinavian produced spare part? Both the Finnish and the Norwegian army were longtime P08 users and might have had spare parts produced?

Luke · 06-25-2005, 01:46 PM

Gerben,

That is an interesting question.

We know that the Finns produced barrels. sights, and grips for the Luger. Could it be that they manufactured other spare parts?

My reservation would be that the rear toggle link is a part seldom broken or lost, so it seems unlikely that the Finns found it necessary to produce these.

Luke

Herb · 06-25-2005, 02:06 PM

Luke, if you have it, check pages 37 and 38 of Gibson's "The Kreighoff Parabellum". The impression I get from his discussion of the rear toggles is that the chamfer, or countersink, in the toggle hole is limited to the Kreighoff manufactureing process. Page 38 also has photos of different toggles.

06-23-2005, 08:15 AM	#1
Luke User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: NC - USA Posts: 1,239 Thanks: 0 Thanked 18 Times in 6 Posts	Unusual Rear Toggle Link - MYSTERY SOLVED Can anyone identify this type rear toggle link? Thanks, Luke __________________ "Peace, if possible; truth, at any cost." . . . Martin Luther

06-23-2005, 08:43 AM	#2
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,152 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	Strictly a hunch Luke... but because of the type of knurling on the toggle knobs, and a dull military rather than a high polish commercial finish, I would have to say that this looks a Swiss Luger toggle to me... Anyone got any other ideas??? __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

06-23-2005, 10:18 AM	#4
Luke User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: NC - USA Posts: 1,239 Thanks: 0 Thanked 18 Times in 6 Posts	Tom - The knob center holes are cleanly chamfered on both sides. Interesting that is is a Krieghoff. That's the last thing I would have suspected, but I have zero experience with Krieghoffs. The part has no proof marks, inspector stamps, or serial numbers that I can find. Thanks. Luke __________________ "Peace, if possible; truth, at any cost." . . . Martin Luther

06-23-2005, 12:00 PM	#6
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,152 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	The lack of that knurling on the sides was the basis of my guess that the toggle was Swiss in origin... and not Krieghoff... Pete, can you post a similar photo to Luke's of a Swiss made representative toggle? thanks... __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

06-23-2005, 01:30 PM	#9
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,152 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	or maybe even an East German replacement Part? __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

06-23-2005, 09:20 AM	#3
Navy RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Dc 'burbs in Virginia Posts: 2,482 Thanks: 0 Thanked 16 Times in 10 Posts	If the knob center hole is campfered as they appear, it is a Krieghoff piece; if they are not, I don't have a clue Tom A

06-23-2005, 11:07 AM	#5
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Luke, I am not convinced it is an HK part...adding a chamfer in the holes would be easy enough to do. Where are the parallel lines running down the sides of the "knobs" on this piece...??? See this photo that John D. posted of his 1938 HK in the Member's Gallery :

06-23-2005, 12:05 PM	#7
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Hi John, No dicing/knurling at all on M1929 Bern toggles...smooth as a baby's behind : The M1906/24 W+F Bern is just like the DWM knobs :

06-23-2005, 12:18 PM	#8
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Luke... My guess..maybe a Sarco, Inc. replacement part...???

06-23-2005, 01:47 PM	#10
Luke User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: NC - USA Posts: 1,239 Thanks: 0 Thanked 18 Times in 6 Posts	I sent Tom Heller a picture of this link, and he suggested that it was probably from a post-war Mauser. Tom is always right about these things, but I wondered if - possibly - there might be another Luger type where they were used. I can't find a picture like this in my Luger library, but I am still looking. Luke __________________ "Peace, if possible; truth, at any cost." . . . Martin Luther

06-23-2005, 09:22 PM	#11
ken d Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: louisville ky Posts: 277 Thanks: 31 Thanked 9 Times in 8 Posts	Luke: Some Mauser Parabellums' 29/70 had a similar toggle although the one I have is not chamfered. Regards Ken D

06-23-2005, 09:42 PM	#12
Luke User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: NC - USA Posts: 1,239 Thanks: 0 Thanked 18 Times in 6 Posts	Ken - Do you have a detailed top-view picture of your Parabellum? Thanks, Luke __________________ "Peace, if possible; truth, at any cost." . . . Martin Luther

06-24-2005, 06:00 PM	#13
ken d Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: louisville ky Posts: 277 Thanks: 31 Thanked 9 Times in 8 Posts	Luke: Sorry I have an old computer operating on windows 95 with no picture capability. Picture in" LUGER" by John Walter, page 132, but not very clear. Regards Ken D

06-24-2005, 07:01 PM	#14
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,049 Thanks: 1,036 Thanked 3,958 Times in 1,200 Posts	Hi, The 1972 version I have indeed lacks the stripes but does have a small line running parallel to the toggle ring sides, just where on an original the lines would stop. The center holes are straight. So it doesn't quite match the toggle piece shown by Luke.

06-24-2005, 07:03 PM	#15
Luke User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: NC - USA Posts: 1,239 Thanks: 0 Thanked 18 Times in 6 Posts	Hello Gerben, Thank you. I have found the toggle you describe in some of my books, but have been unable to find a picture of the type I displayed in this string. This must be a RARE and, therefore, extremely valuable part . . . not. Luke __________________ "Peace, if possible; truth, at any cost." . . . Martin Luther

06-24-2005, 07:24 PM	#16
Luke User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: NC - USA Posts: 1,239 Thanks: 0 Thanked 18 Times in 6 Posts	Hello Ken D - - - Thanks anyway. As it turns out, that's the one Walter book I don't have. As I mentioned in my reply to Gerben, I have found some pictures, but they all have a fine line where the original "checkering" would have ended. This part does not have that fine line. Still a mystery. Regards, Luke __________________ "Peace, if possible; truth, at any cost." . . . Martin Luther

06-25-2005, 07:47 AM	#17
Lugerdoc Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: POB 398 St.Charles,MO. 63302 Posts: 5,089 Thanks: 6 Thanked 736 Times in 483 Posts	Gerben, If your toggle has a hole on top for an axel retaining pin, it is proably DDR production. If not, it is probably for a Mauser Parabellum, as the M29 Swiss, which are similar, usually bear the full serial number of the gun and a Swiss proof. The DDr rear links also have finer checkering (5 lines below the hole, as only 3 lines on the Parabellum) than the post war Mausers. Tom __________________ Tom Heller POB 398 ST.Charles, MO. 63302 Tel 636-447-3006 lugerdoc@charter.net

06-25-2005, 08:52 AM	#18
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,049 Thanks: 1,036 Thanked 3,958 Times in 1,200 Posts	Hi Tom, It's not my toggle Interesting that you mention DDR reproduction toggle pieces. Never realized they also produced completely new parts, apart from the barrels and springs. A German-proofed Mauser Parabellum would indeed have a proof mark on the top of the rear toggle. Could the piece pictured be a scandinavian produced spare part? Both the Finnish and the Norwegian army were longtime P08 users and might have had spare parts produced?

06-25-2005, 01:46 PM	#19
Luke User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: NC - USA Posts: 1,239 Thanks: 0 Thanked 18 Times in 6 Posts	Gerben, That is an interesting question. We know that the Finns produced barrels. sights, and grips for the Luger. Could it be that they manufactured other spare parts? My reservation would be that the rear toggle link is a part seldom broken or lost, so it seems unlikely that the Finns found it necessary to produce these. Luke __________________ "Peace, if possible; truth, at any cost." . . . Martin Luther

06-25-2005, 02:06 PM	#20
Herb User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Utah, in the land of the Sleeping Rainbow Posts: 1,457 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Luke, if you have it, check pages 37 and 38 of Gibson's "The Kreighoff Parabellum". The impression I get from his discussion of the rear toggles is that the chamfer, or countersink, in the toggle hole is limited to the Kreighoff manufactureing process. Page 38 also has photos of different toggles. __________________ Utah, where gun control means a steady trigger pull