Need Info on 1918 1920 Luger (Picts)

sesegal99 · 01-02-2005, 11:25 PM

http://www.ofoto.com/BrowsePhotos.js...id=26457391706

This Luger was my grandfather's who brought it back from WWII. I'm trying to find out where and when and whom he got it from by reviewing all the old war documents he has. I suspect he killed a german for it. He had kept it with a german booklet, a badge, the holster, the bullets, the magazine and the tool. It appears that all numbers match. Just wondering if you can help me out by looking at the pictures and also give me a value of the gun. Not looking to sell, but just curious. Thanks, and let me know if the link works.

jamese · 01-03-2005, 07:49 AM

Seseg99,

From the photos posted you can see that your luger was manufactured near the end of WW1 and has the 1920 Reichswehr property stamp. The weapon was also pressed into police service as evidenced by the sear safety and the Police unit marking on the grip strap and the magazine.

I looked in GortzÃ¢??s to book (German small arms Markings) in an attempt to identify the Police District or unit, but the third letter is hard to make out and I donÃ¢??t find anything that seems to match.

It appears that you have a nice matching police weapon. IÃ¢??m not sure about the holster because a lot of police service holsters have stud style closure mechanism, instead of the military style buckle.

I will reserve the value judgements to those like Ed Tinker, or others who collect this type weapon.

Jim

Tomathvl · 01-03-2005, 10:20 AM

Jim, I assume the number on the magazine is the same as the grip strap and it's clear. A backward J to us non-German speaking folks.
Also, the barrel marking of Eagle over SU25 indicates the barrel has been replaced. Costanzo pg 349.
The pictures show a dot/period punch mark after the serial number in several locations. I've not seen this before. What sort of marking is this????
Thanks,
Tom

Edward Tinker · 01-03-2005, 11:44 AM

Tom, I commented on Jan Stills forum. I "assumed" that it was an Li but Don pointed out it looked more like a backwards J, which no one is sure what it represents.

Value, I would guess $1100 for the entire rig, maybe more, maybe less, one of those things you have to get it into your hands and look at it.

Also, many times weapons were picked up off of the battlefield, or even more likely, picked up prior to leaving the country from the ETO.

Ed

Tomathvl · 01-03-2005, 02:48 PM

Thanks Ed,
I posted the following over on Jan's so the whole story is in the thread.
The Eagle over SU25 is shown in Costanzo on Pg.349 and listed as being the marking on a replacement barrel.There are two additional Eagle over SU25 on page 82 that are listed as Simpson/Ulbricht proofs for rework, repair and reissue of entire pieces. One of the Eagle markings is the same as the barrel marking on this piece and states "Found on 1918/20 DWM 4" Navy models reworked in 1921". The 2nd Eagle over SU25 which has a different shaped Eagle states "These models were reworked, repaired and reissued in 1933 for Amt. office number 25 military use. Note: Usually found on double dated chamber 1920, 1921".
Anyone ever seen the dot after the serial number???
Tom

Edward Tinker · 01-03-2005, 03:36 PM

I would say I have "never" seen the dot after a number but in the back of mind, I know that isn't true....

And the alphabet I just got from a friend a couple of months ago has a SU25, and so it is interesting to see it so soon, considering I had never seen (maybe should say noticed) it before!

Ed

policeluger · 01-04-2005, 05:23 PM

I have in my collection a DWM 1915/1920 police, grip "S. D. 1. 275.(X'ed R.) and only the side plate has a "dot after the SN. All other parts are matched, just not followed by the "dot"..For waht its worth I hope it helps...would be interested to know if a Weimar army or navy is found so marked

lugercollector · 01-04-2005, 09:26 PM

I have a DWM 1916-1920 Police marked Luger with 2 dots punched next to the serial numbers on all the critical points....eg breecblock,barrel etc..I think this was to confirm that these parts passed the rework inspection....I will post photos if anyone is interested....also this particular Luger had been refinished at the same time as the rework and has a bluing on it that is similar to parkerising,very similar to the bluing on a 1925 Simson Luger I had recently...perhaps Simson did these reworks...??

Dwight Gruber · 01-04-2005, 10:42 PM

"Dots" show up occasionally in odd places on Lugers. Afaik they are hardness test punches.

--Dwight

Edward Tinker · 01-04-2005, 11:03 PM

I could take that, if the "dots" weren't after a serial number in several places. Why would they test the hardness more than one spot on receiver and frame?

ED

policeluger · 01-04-2005, 11:34 PM

Hardness test points are per Costanzo, found on 1937-1942 Mausers and not noted to be found following serial numbers, and not noted on earlier years of production. Perhaps this is a police "thing"....but I do not think it has a thing to do with hardness. On my one example note, if it were a hardness teat, why only the side plate ?.

Dwight Gruber · 01-05-2005, 01:59 AM

Ed,

Perhaps to test hardness consistency throught the piece.

Howard,

Random parts testing. Nothing says its not a police "thing", one way or another.

Here's a picture posted by Thor of a property marked Erfurt (date hasn't survived the archive):

http://members.rennlist.com/lugerman/TDDErfurt3.jpg

In another post there is a comment about Thor's K-date with several of these dots.

Here you'll find another one, posted by Herb, look at "side stamp"--no indicatin what the gun is:

http://members14.clubphoto.com/herb5...43/guest.phtml

Here's a previous discussion on the topic:

http://forum.lugerforum.com/showthre...=hardness+test

Its true that most of the examples have more than one dot in close proximity.

Here is a picture of the breechblock of my Simson rework of a First Issue Military, it has a dot where one expects to find a firing proof:

Couldn't say what this all means, but it does seem to be a fairly extensive practice with no good explanation.

--Dwight

Edward Tinker · 01-05-2005, 02:50 AM

Dwight, not trying to make you mad, but I disagree totally.

The examples you have shown, I would say it is a good chance they are hardness testing... But this example, I see no reason to poke a dot after each serial number. I can't see a consistent dot after each ending of a number to be anything but on purpose?

If a "random" dot equals hardness testing, then it doesn't make sense to take your time and ensure it is after the last number in so many places.

Whether for a certain city or to show a difference in a number (maybe easier to distinguish a same numbered luger by dots, then to mark it with the "3rd" digit ala "The Dutch Luger"?

Ed

sesegal99 · 01-07-2005, 10:27 AM

http://www.ofoto.com/PhotoView.jsp?U...id=36457391706

Ya. I agree, the dots are def intentional just look a the small number 3 on the metal guide to the right of this picture, why would someone do a hardness test there???

policeluger · 01-07-2005, 10:48 AM

Ed, I'm with you 100% on this, as sesegal99 said this is intentional after serial number, not in a random place on each part....as so far as I can tell only police Lugers.....very interesting, Note DG I said only as far as I can tell its police guns. No fighting here just a good exchange of information, but Ed you know I've never trusted Dwight, liberal media type.....we are getting hammered here with what some are calling the mother of all storms, I live in the desert near Death Valley, and we are getting about an inch of smow right now, 3rd time in almost 40 years!!! my ford 4x4 may not make it to UPS today....best to all

Dwight Gruber · 01-07-2005, 11:00 AM

Not taking umbrage at anything here (including "liberal media type..."). Hardness dots strike me as similar to the circle-S topic. A profusion of examples, a couple of predominate suppositions, no documentation to support one over another. Proceed at your own risk.

--Dwight

Edward Tinker · 01-07-2005, 11:23 AM

Circle S topic, hmmmm, its me causing the trouble!

Vlim · 01-07-2005, 01:07 PM

Gentlemen,

A nice discussion and I think the dot on the 1920 rework isn't a hardness test, although the dots on regular gun parts most definately are.

I believe this pistol, number 103. had the dot in order to prevent the number being interpreted as 801 (upside down). There is a good chance that the armory this pistol came from simply had a pistol numbered 801, 901 or 601 and the dot was added to secure the gun parts with the correct gun.

John Sabato · 01-07-2005, 01:45 PM

A very plausible theory Gerben!

policeluger · 01-07-2005, 01:55 PM

Who would hold a pistol upside down and read its serial #. Nope, this does not compute well....sorry not to be rude.

01-02-2005, 11:25 PM	#1
sesegal99 User Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 6 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Need Info on 1918 1920 Luger (Picts) http://www.ofoto.com/BrowsePhotos.js...id=26457391706 This Luger was my grandfather's who brought it back from WWII. I'm trying to find out where and when and whom he got it from by reviewing all the old war documents he has. I suspect he killed a german for it. He had kept it with a german booklet, a badge, the holster, the bullets, the magazine and the tool. It appears that all numbers match. Just wondering if you can help me out by looking at the pictures and also give me a value of the gun. Not looking to sell, but just curious. Thanks, and let me know if the link works.

01-03-2005, 07:49 AM	#2
jamese User Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: South Florida Posts: 789 Thanks: 0 Thanked 84 Times in 34 Posts	Seseg99, From the photos posted you can see that your luger was manufactured near the end of WW1 and has the 1920 Reichswehr property stamp. The weapon was also pressed into police service as evidenced by the sear safety and the Police unit marking on the grip strap and the magazine. I looked in GortzÃ¢??s to book (German small arms Markings) in an attempt to identify the Police District or unit, but the third letter is hard to make out and I donÃ¢??t find anything that seems to match. It appears that you have a nice matching police weapon. IÃ¢??m not sure about the holster because a lot of police service holsters have stud style closure mechanism, instead of the military style buckle. I will reserve the value judgements to those like Ed Tinker, or others who collect this type weapon. Jim __________________ The "truth" is a matter of Perception

01-03-2005, 11:44 AM	#4
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,909 Thanks: 1,986 Thanked 4,500 Times in 2,076 Posts	Tom, I commented on Jan Stills forum. I "assumed" that it was an Li but Don pointed out it looked more like a backwards J, which no one is sure what it represents. Value, I would guess $1100 for the entire rig, maybe more, maybe less, one of those things you have to get it into your hands and look at it. Also, many times weapons were picked up off of the battlefield, or even more likely, picked up prior to leaving the country from the ETO. Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

01-07-2005, 11:23 AM	#17
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,909 Thanks: 1,986 Thanked 4,500 Times in 2,076 Posts	Circle S topic, hmmmm, its me causing the trouble! __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

01-07-2005, 01:45 PM	#19
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,150 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	A very plausible theory Gerben! __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

01-03-2005, 10:20 AM	#3
Tomathvl User Join Date: May 2004 Location: Milan, IN Posts: 363 Thanks: 3 Thanked 48 Times in 19 Posts	Jim, I assume the number on the magazine is the same as the grip strap and it's clear. A backward J to us non-German speaking folks. Also, the barrel marking of Eagle over SU25 indicates the barrel has been replaced. Costanzo pg 349. The pictures show a dot/period punch mark after the serial number in several locations. I've not seen this before. What sort of marking is this???? Thanks, Tom

01-03-2005, 02:48 PM	#5
Tomathvl User Join Date: May 2004 Location: Milan, IN Posts: 363 Thanks: 3 Thanked 48 Times in 19 Posts	Thanks Ed, I posted the following over on Jan's so the whole story is in the thread. The Eagle over SU25 is shown in Costanzo on Pg.349 and listed as being the marking on a replacement barrel.There are two additional Eagle over SU25 on page 82 that are listed as Simpson/Ulbricht proofs for rework, repair and reissue of entire pieces. One of the Eagle markings is the same as the barrel marking on this piece and states "Found on 1918/20 DWM 4" Navy models reworked in 1921". The 2nd Eagle over SU25 which has a different shaped Eagle states "These models were reworked, repaired and reissued in 1933 for Amt. office number 25 military use. Note: Usually found on double dated chamber 1920, 1921". Anyone ever seen the dot after the serial number??? Tom

01-03-2005, 03:36 PM	#6
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,909 Thanks: 1,986 Thanked 4,500 Times in 2,076 Posts	I would say I have "never" seen the dot after a number but in the back of mind, I know that isn't true.... And the alphabet I just got from a friend a couple of months ago has a SU25, and so it is interesting to see it so soon, considering I had never seen (maybe should say noticed) it before! Ed

01-04-2005, 05:23 PM	#7
policeluger RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Ca. Posts: 2,141 Thanks: 8 Thanked 89 Times in 54 Posts	I have in my collection a DWM 1915/1920 police, grip "S. D. 1. 275.(X'ed R.) and only the side plate has a "dot after the SN. All other parts are matched, just not followed by the "dot"..For waht its worth I hope it helps...would be interested to know if a Weimar army or navy is found so marked

01-04-2005, 09:26 PM	#8
lugercollector Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: canada Posts: 322 Thanks: 0 Thanked 25 Times in 15 Posts	I have a DWM 1916-1920 Police marked Luger with 2 dots punched next to the serial numbers on all the critical points....eg breecblock,barrel etc..I think this was to confirm that these parts passed the rework inspection....I will post photos if anyone is interested....also this particular Luger had been refinished at the same time as the rework and has a bluing on it that is similar to parkerising,very similar to the bluing on a 1925 Simson Luger I had recently...perhaps Simson did these reworks...??

01-04-2005, 10:42 PM	#9
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,889 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,281 Times in 423 Posts	"Dots" show up occasionally in odd places on Lugers. Afaik they are hardness test punches. --Dwight

01-04-2005, 11:03 PM	#10
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,909 Thanks: 1,986 Thanked 4,500 Times in 2,076 Posts	I could take that, if the "dots" weren't after a serial number in several places. Why would they test the hardness more than one spot on receiver and frame? ED

01-04-2005, 11:34 PM	#11
policeluger RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Ca. Posts: 2,141 Thanks: 8 Thanked 89 Times in 54 Posts	Hardness test points are per Costanzo, found on 1937-1942 Mausers and not noted to be found following serial numbers, and not noted on earlier years of production. Perhaps this is a police "thing"....but I do not think it has a thing to do with hardness. On my one example note, if it were a hardness teat, why only the side plate ?.

01-05-2005, 01:59 AM	#12
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,889 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,281 Times in 423 Posts	Ed, Perhaps to test hardness consistency throught the piece. Howard, Random parts testing. Nothing says its not a police "thing", one way or another. Here's a picture posted by Thor of a property marked Erfurt (date hasn't survived the archive): http://members.rennlist.com/lugerman/TDDErfurt3.jpg In another post there is a comment about Thor's K-date with several of these dots. Here you'll find another one, posted by Herb, look at "side stamp"--no indicatin what the gun is: http://members14.clubphoto.com/herb5...43/guest.phtml Here's a previous discussion on the topic: http://forum.lugerforum.com/showthre...=hardness+test Its true that most of the examples have more than one dot in close proximity. Here is a picture of the breechblock of my Simson rework of a First Issue Military, it has a dot where one expects to find a firing proof: Couldn't say what this all means, but it does seem to be a fairly extensive practice with no good explanation. --Dwight

01-05-2005, 02:50 AM	#13
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,909 Thanks: 1,986 Thanked 4,500 Times in 2,076 Posts	Dwight, not trying to make you mad, but I disagree totally. The examples you have shown, I would say it is a good chance they are hardness testing... But this example, I see no reason to poke a dot after each serial number. I can't see a consistent dot after each ending of a number to be anything but on purpose? If a "random" dot equals hardness testing, then it doesn't make sense to take your time and ensure it is after the last number in so many places. Whether for a certain city or to show a difference in a number (maybe easier to distinguish a same numbered luger by dots, then to mark it with the "3rd" digit ala "The Dutch Luger"? Ed

01-07-2005, 10:27 AM	#14
sesegal99 User Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 6 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	http://www.ofoto.com/PhotoView.jsp?U...id=36457391706 Ya. I agree, the dots are def intentional just look a the small number 3 on the metal guide to the right of this picture, why would someone do a hardness test there???

01-07-2005, 10:48 AM	#15
policeluger RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Ca. Posts: 2,141 Thanks: 8 Thanked 89 Times in 54 Posts	Ed, I'm with you 100% on this, as sesegal99 said this is intentional after serial number, not in a random place on each part....as so far as I can tell only police Lugers.....very interesting, Note DG I said only as far as I can tell its police guns. No fighting here just a good exchange of information, but Ed you know I've never trusted Dwight, liberal media type.....we are getting hammered here with what some are calling the mother of all storms, I live in the desert near Death Valley, and we are getting about an inch of smow right now, 3rd time in almost 40 years!!! my ford 4x4 may not make it to UPS today....best to all

01-07-2005, 11:00 AM	#16
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,889 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,281 Times in 423 Posts	Not taking umbrage at anything here (including "liberal media type..."). Hardness dots strike me as similar to the circle-S topic. A profusion of examples, a couple of predominate suppositions, no documentation to support one over another. Proceed at your own risk. --Dwight

01-07-2005, 01:07 PM	#18
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,031 Thanks: 1,018 Thanked 3,873 Times in 1,184 Posts	Gentlemen, A nice discussion and I think the dot on the 1920 rework isn't a hardness test, although the dots on regular gun parts most definately are. I believe this pistol, number 103. had the dot in order to prevent the number being interpreted as 801 (upside down). There is a good chance that the armory this pistol came from simply had a pistol numbered 801, 901 or 601 and the dot was added to secure the gun parts with the correct gun.

01-07-2005, 01:55 PM	#20
policeluger RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Ca. Posts: 2,141 Thanks: 8 Thanked 89 Times in 54 Posts	Who would hold a pistol upside down and read its serial #. Nope, this does not compute well....sorry not to be rude.