Interesting Old .22 Luger Thread

[sheepherder]

I was prepared to respond to a comment by a new member on ripoffs and remembered one of junglejim's threads...I found it but Jim has not posted in over nine years...

It involved a Luger carbine...

http://forum.lugerforum.com/showthread.php?t=21822

IMO, it should be a sticky, and a warning...

But that is not the thread I wanted to talk about here...

Jim posted pics of his .22 Luger conversion done by John G. Lawson which used a custom wildcat .22 bottleneck cartridge. I do a bit of wildcatting and found it interesting. Some of the newer members (and RickW and Sieger) may find it interesting as well.

http://forum.lugerforum.com/showthread.php?t=22199

If junglejim is still around, perhaps he could expound on this fascinating conversion...

[Rick W.]

Rich,

some years ago the late Hugh C. talked with me about a 22/30 Luger. He referred to it as the 22 Lowenstein, guy from San Fran area maybe..?

So being the new kid on the block, I had a Lee 30 Luger die modified by Christensen for a bushing top. Played with the bushing die a little, but my confidence level at the time was not up to doing a converted Luger.

Hugh offered me a Luger barrel in the caliber above with some brass, not sure about the dies anymore, but I had to decline. Somewhat to my regret today but time goes on. I was still in the trying to not screw up basic threading at the time.

Hugh and I talked about about zip to move the toggle like it should, and both had some reservations about making a 22/30 Luger repeater work well, versus beating the toggle to death. Maybe some of the newer powders of today along with a heavier bullet might help that some.

I notice the barrel is fairly petite, one way to get around the above issue. With the pistol shown saying working..........gives new hope to me at least. I have always thought it could be done, but one might have to make some concessions.

I have spare 30 Luger reamers that could be reground by PTG for a 22 front; just something for me to ponder. One would suspect that sizing dies, ala bushing could be made up from scratch to do the shoulder and necking procedure..........maybe then use a full length 30 Luger sizer to do the body????. Two respective reamers (chamber/full length sizer)are a fair investment nowadays from PTG. There are ways to use a chamber reamer with specialized materials, ie the cavity gets smaller with procedures after reaming, but kinda advanced for a stone cutter like me.

I have always dreamed about one of these 22, 24, or 25 bullets on a 30 Luger in the Luger pistol. If one liked the 30 because of the way it carried out to the target, then the 22 might be more better.

Sounds like a project for you huh?...............

[sheepherder]

Originally Posted by Rick W.

Sounds like a project for you huh?...............

I already did such a project, based on a Mauser C96. I used a shortened RCBS .223 Remington die set to form .223 Remington brass to ~1.000 (C96 30 cal length). I used a Clymer 256 Win Mag chambering reamer with a .25 cal barrel blank threaded to fit a cut-back C96 barrel extension. I posted a pic of the resulting mongrel some time back. It originally had a quite long barrel, but I shortened it to ~C96 length eventually. I still have the complete barrel/extension here somewhere (pic below).

It worked out very well, but I could not interest any of my then-buddies in it. They all wanted big bore magnums.

I still have my reloading notes, along with a couple hundred leftover bullets. I called it a 256 Cal Mauser.

Couldn't find the pic of the assembled 256 long-barrel C96...Just the barreled extension...And a pic of the shortened 256 Mauser barreled extension, with a pic (shown enlarged) of the '256 Mauser' cartridge...

[Rick W.]

Rich,

I have seen picts/articles on a 25/30 Luger with longish barrel that they claimed worked ok. More bullet weight helps I am sure, especially with the longer barrel.

Out of curosity, I dug out the modified 30 Luger die, and with some Wilson bushings necked down some 38 super cases. I did not put a lot of effort into the deal, the cases were shortened by hand, and just run thru the die with the respective bushings. So kinda rough, but shows the concept attempt.

The result is not quite what I wanted, but it is what it is. I think the shoulder is too sharp. Bullet length/weight really surprised me, have to find some old round nose hornet bullets or perhaps some of the lightweight babies on the market now....30-35gr; but that may work against the effort as far as repeatable function.

My slush fund is way down now, so no funds for custom reamers. I can make the dies from scratch, but that approach takes the basic reamer tooling to get there. I have not evaluated a shortened 256 win mag die or a 22 sabre cat die............but have extras of the 256 dies, so will take a cue and looksee how that might do...........

Maybe the fellow with the original working Luger will visit again and share more of how it did, was, and is..............always thought a little bullet in the Luger would be neat.

[sheepherder]

Does anyone make a round nosed .223 cal bullet??? I haven't kept up with AR stuff.

If I could find a cheap/reasonable Luger barrel extension ["receiver"}, I would try a .22 Luger. I'd make the cartridges out of .223 Remington brass in a shortened RCBS .223 die set, like I did with the '256 Mauser'. That allows me to use a .223 (or 5.56mm) chambering reamer, which I already have. And AR-15 5.56/.223 die sets are cheap on eBay.

Even if no one makes a round nose bullet, it is not hard to make up a set of aluminum blocks to hold the pointed bullets while you mill them to a blunt nose. I've done similar work with 30 cal carbine bullets, but on those, I drill out the base to lighten them for 30 Mauser.

An amusing project. Sellers on eBay seldom separate the Luger barrel from the extension, and they seem to believe that a Luger barrel + extension is worth ~$400...

Maybe I'm living in 1985 but I won't pay that much for a barreled extension...

[DonVoigt]

"Maybe I'm living in 1985 but I won't pay that much for a barreled extension... "

I agree,
but we are competing with those who will and do!

Thee is a rough one online now, maybe it will work for you.

[sheepherder]

Originally Posted by DonVoigt

"Maybe I'm living in 1985 but I won't pay that much for a barreled extension... "

I agree,
but we are competing with those who will and do!

Thee is a rough one online now, maybe it will work for you.

I saw that one - "has been filed"...

Now I'm looking at the 30 cal 'frosty barrel' with an arty-notched extension...The extension has the C/N...But a commercial with a notch???

I've been toying with an idea for a while...A Luger barrel extension with a stub where the barrel would be...And different barrels that plug (or thread) into the stub...Sort of a quick-change barrel, but not as bulky as the one pictured several years ago...

Maybe even a quarter-twist stub & barrels...

[sheepherder]

Originally Posted by Rick W.

Out of curosity, I dug out the modified 30 Luger die, and with some Wilson bushings necked down some 38 super cases.

The .223 case is close enough to 9mm/7.65mm Parabellum cases to work (that's how we made 30 Luger & 30 Mauser cartridges back when you couldn't buy them). And If I'm only using the first inch or so of the chambering reamer, then I only need to make a spacer for the reloading dies, so the case goes in the same distance...Form with the expanding die. Seating die might require a special 'round/flat head' die insert...Or modify the spitzer insert...Depending on bullet used...Hmmm...

Correction: I would still need to cut down the .223 dies...I would not be using the base section...

[Rick W.]

The 38 special, 223, 357 wildcats have been around a while. Some use the DW360 or Largo even. The 17, 19 and 20 cal guys use a lot of rimmed 38/357/largo for their wildcats, with the same concept you presented on reusing a 223 or 223 AI reamer, works pretty well as you already know. I think that concept probably is more prudent than the idea of a specialized die being made up, then procuring a custom reamer. PTG grinds reamers fairly reasonably fwiw......comparatively speaking. Just different approaches I reckon.

I have a lot of old hornet and bee bullets, mostly Winchester that fall in the little bare nosed bullet category I think. Hard to find at times......so I went out and looked at this site:

https://www.midwayusa.com/s?userSear...temsPerPage=48

kinda surprising how many bullets under 50grs for the 22 bore.

I shoot a Smith Wesson 53 a fair amount, supposed to have the fairly rare 222 diameter bullets by Hornady, but the 223's are easier to get and are ok with my loads. I have looked into getting a Lee bullet sizer(30 bucks) to take 224 down to 223 or 223; just because of the bulk buys on 224's at times being presented.

In trying to come up to speed a little, I have learned that having the right brass can really help a project like this(base dimensions), Rich has already been thru most of that, I appreciate being reminded of such. Not looked at inside reaming or outside turning yet, but tis a custom project I remind myself.........

I hear you on parts pricing nowadays, everyone thinks they have a natural 401K...........I walk myself on those things. One will turn up somehow without paying the magical tolls, being on an inner circle sure helps.

Werle has a youtube or two on a Luger that shoots the longish 30 Mauser, the cartridges reside in the basic Luger magazine, but pretty upright. From the tube the cartridges seem to wanna feed even, never would have thunk it.............

I share the dream of a sub-caliber Luger, maybe someone will get there...........................post it for me that will probably still be stumbling around in the dark.

[sheepherder]

I still have some of the test cases I used for a similar project...The loaded cartridge on the far right is a Fiocchi 30 Luger cartridge for comparison...

These were 5.56 cases, I didn't care if they were trashed...But they extruded quite well to the smaller diameter neck...

The one closest to a 30 Luger case would be acceptable...

[sheepherder]

I checked my box of die sets and lo & behold I have a spare set of .223 Remington dies!

They're in a soft plastic rack container, and that is something I would never buy. Either I got it with an AR-15 long ago, or someone gave it to me...

I much prefer the green hard case boxes.

Now to find a Luger barrel extension...

[Rick W.]

I tried a piece of Privi 223 brass tonight cut off with a tubing cutter to about 0.9" figuring I would lose some length going down to 22. I have used this brass in 22 hornet for a 22 squirrel Smith Wesson revolver, sure worked nice; so tried the brand again for this.

I used the old Lee bushing die again, but with more common sense. I could mimic the original angle of the 30 Luger more closely if I paid attention for once. I used the basic Lee bushing die without bushing first to knock the front down just a little. Then went to 308, 276, 255. The reworked 223 Privi brass did ok, looked more it shoulda. Always have to relearn something..........

As expected in going down to 22 caliber, the neck walls are super thick. After the 255 bushing, I tried seating a 224 bullet, and stopped before I killed it. So I ran a 224 inside expander on it, and the case with a loaded bullet ballooned to 266.

So one could always inside neck ream, but that puts variables on the brand/lot of brass. One could consider inside expanding and then neck turn, which of course, would be consistent without the brass thickness variables.

The 266 is pretty big for a 22, but guess custom reamer is a custom reamer, no extra cost for a unique neck size bore. neck/lead reamers are out there too, but probably be custom? not knowem right now.

I don't have any practical experience with a cut off 222 die set, especially that much cut off. The 222 has some angle to its sides, so the tighter it gets as you cut off. Of course, you know all of this stuff, just thinking out loud here. The super or Largo brass is thnner fwiw.

The 223 brass for a 22/30 Luger wildcat will work, but the resultant neck walls are there to be handled somehow, one way or another.
My trial case with 223 looks much nicer with the better technique tonight, feeds in a Luger magazine ok. So tis a start.

I only have a 223 A.I. reamer in the drawer..........oh, a 222 reamer as well, so might give that a go in a old barrel stub run in short just to learn more. Would be nice not to have to buy a reamer.................yeah, I said that before........but sometimes it works out huh?...........theoretical analysis can always be done to see the dimensions once modified things are cut/sized, but sometimes just working the metal is good therapy.

In the past, a long barrel has always been my choice, maybe if the 22 Luger project comes to life, a 4 3/4 Swiss might be the ticket. Less mass to move etc etc...........and looks like a Luger to me.......but so many options when metal is in front of you....................fun stuff huh?

[Ron Wood]

Youze guys are nuts...but it is an entertaining kind of crazy, so keep the info going. Last one to blow up a gun wins.

[sheepherder]

Originally Posted by Rick W.

In the past, a long barrel has always been my choice, maybe if the 22 Luger project comes to life, a 4 3/4 Swiss might be the ticket.

Michael Zelany has pics of a Swiss 'target' Luger that shows up in the Random Album Pics occasionally. It is pretty cool looking. I don't know the actual length or taper or diameter but I might try 'reverse-engineering' a .22 barrel from his pics...

If I can find them...I don't see them in his albums...

But Michael is selling some of his Swiss Lugers this week...

https://www.gunbroker.com/item/797996394

Edit: Ah! Here's the pic! From Random Album Pics -



Hmmm...Kinda long...

[Rick W.]

Ever since I saw my first 4 3/4" barrel a while ago, no other taper has ever taken its place as my favorite. Looks good to me, handles ok. The 550/450 taper (4 3/4") on a 30 bore does it for me every time. I have a picture somewhere of a guy's Navy Luger with a 7" taper like this............looks swell.......

I think a lighter barrel taper may help with any 22/30 Luger attempts, less mass to fuss with.

Lots of bullet mold outfits offer simallish 22 bullet wares, not like the old days, most ranges today will not allow lead bullets; but..........the molds are out there still.

I have done this taper on 4 3/4" thru 14" in real 30 Luger and the wildcats thereof.......always functioned ok. My scope mounted Luger mule has the longer barrel now with that taper. The 4 3/4 taper to some may not hold as steady as a heavier taper or bull type, but to others fits the bill ok. So kinda a choice thing........

I ventured into the spec of the 223 A.I. a little, it has about 1/2 the body taper of the regular 223, so cutting that off might have a slight advantage perhaps.

Trying find a sub slush fund now for a new reamer.........what's another reamer among the many...........it would do the bushing neck sizing die and forming dies..........and the 223 A.I. might do the body sizing............just dreaming this morning.

[sheepherder]

Originally Posted by Rick W.

Ever since I saw my first 4 3/4" barrel a while ago, no other taper has ever taken its place as my favorite. Looks good to me, handles ok. The 550/450 taper (4 3/4") on a 30 bore does it for me every time.

I'm not sure what you mean by that. It's not the major/minor taper of a 120mm M1900 barrel (pic below).

I have a 1900AE and a couple M1900 barrels and I think the taper is too steep and the barrel too thin...

[sheepherder]

I've always thought that the pic in Ed Tinkers' album of a Navy looked proportionately almost perfect...



I don't know which variation it is, or if the barrel is 1500mm...But the taper looks just right...

[Rick W.]

Rich,

Thanks for the dwg. I never had one. Someone measured the numbers for me at the start and stop of taper on a slender barrel, then eventually got a beater or two.

This is kinda what does it for me, always thought it was a 4 3/4 type.

Barrel taper is a subjective thing. Sometimes in comes into play just for functionality, sometimes just for looks, if can do both..........tis ok.

Yeah, that Navy is a nice one. I am hoping that the 22/30 project will be on that platform, maybe longer or shorter........or maybe otherwise........

I was trying to remember..........navy/ arty, 4"..........650/550 over the taper between the bulges; nominal figures of course.

[sheepherder]

Originally Posted by Rick W.

I am hoping that the 22/30 project will be on that platform, maybe longer or shorter........or maybe otherwise........

Are you considering a .22 barrel on a 30 cartridge Luger conversion???

Some time back, I did a pair of 6" barrels...One was a 9mm thinned to M1900 taper [elongated to 6"], and the other was a 30 cal with a 9mm taper [elongated to 6"]...

I hadn't finished the front sight base on the one barrel because I didn't know the heigth, but someone [George/Norme?] posted that it was the same as the artillery base...I haven't got that far yet...maybe never...

[Rick W.]

The 22/30 Luger or thereabouts has always been one of the fires in the distance here. It gets tended to, then forgotten, etc etc. I like a Luger that shoots flat and is...............different, catered to me, the dreamer. Even considered 6mm and 25cal off the 30 Luger or a close clone.

To experience something I read about as a kid growing up in the gun rags, tis always on the mind; only way for me to do it........is to do it myself.

I am still crawdaddying around between a 223 A.I. reamer and cut off dies(A.I. has less body taper to effect the cut off sizing, versus the 40 degree shoulder; or just bite the bullet and buy the custom ground reamer from PTG and make my own dies. I have a little fear of the body taper of the cutoff used old dies routine. I may chamber up some scrap to 222 or 223 and see how the taper plays sometime. Not been able to do much lately, so it lingers on the mind.

The 22 Luger, Lowenstein, 22/30Luger just necks to 22 cal, and keeps the angle the same, hence the slightly shorter neck. I would like to keep the longer neck of the parent, but changes have to occur in the basics.

I have a nightie that the lighter the barrel, the better chance for function without going abbynormal in pressures/bullet weight. Hence my talk about certain tapers.

I have the barrel takeoff's here in the corner, but one has to have a plan I have been told. I have blasted off on pure conjecture and the result was most times about that, so gotta get the plan together. The chambering is the key item to me right now, how to.......

I have a lot of barrels with the more slender taper, all homebrew, made on my old Atlas lathe. I have two tailstocks, one for nice/nice and one for offset tapering, and the bed is long enough for both to reside during tapering.

I am hesitant to show this old mule some, but here it is. This is a Luger that I shoot regularly, a 7.65x19 wildcat(30/9mmx19 or 7.65x19 as ESKO called it). Shoots well and the various parts/additions like the stainless toggle in the 18 receiver and scope mount plays. Iron sight on front is simplistic, to me only for a bit of look, I always use the scope or red dot with this one.

Barrel is now..........10" or so..........650 to 450 nominally. Was a 14" or so earlier in life, but change comes and goes here.

Some things are never done. Some barrels remain lathe turned without any polishing for years, I always think I will change out. You will notice the thicker shoulder on this one, gives me room to rechamber/reuse. I can make a 55 gal drum failly nervous at 10 yards with it..........