Interesting Old .22 Luger Thread

sheepherder · 03-02-2019, 02:05 PM

I was prepared to respond to a comment by a new member on ripoffs and remembered one of junglejim's threads...I found it but Jim has not posted in over nine years...

It involved a Luger carbine...

http://forum.lugerforum.com/showthread.php?t=21822

IMO, it should be a sticky, and a warning...

But that is not the thread I wanted to talk about here...

Jim posted pics of his .22 Luger conversion done by John G. Lawson which used a custom wildcat .22 bottleneck cartridge. I do a bit of wildcatting and found it interesting. Some of the newer members (and RickW and Sieger) may find it interesting as well.

http://forum.lugerforum.com/showthread.php?t=22199

If junglejim is still around, perhaps he could expound on this fascinating conversion...

Rick W. · 03-02-2019, 03:14 PM

Rich,

some years ago the late Hugh C. talked with me about a 22/30 Luger. He referred to it as the 22 Lowenstein, guy from San Fran area maybe..?

So being the new kid on the block, I had a Lee 30 Luger die modified by Christensen for a bushing top. Played with the bushing die a little, but my confidence level at the time was not up to doing a converted Luger.

Hugh offered me a Luger barrel in the caliber above with some brass, not sure about the dies anymore, but I had to decline. Somewhat to my regret today but time goes on. I was still in the trying to not screw up basic threading at the time.

Hugh and I talked about about zip to move the toggle like it should, and both had some reservations about making a 22/30 Luger repeater work well, versus beating the toggle to death. Maybe some of the newer powders of today along with a heavier bullet might help that some.

I notice the barrel is fairly petite, one way to get around the above issue. With the pistol shown saying working..........gives new hope to me at least. I have always thought it could be done, but one might have to make some concessions.

I have spare 30 Luger reamers that could be reground by PTG for a 22 front; just something for me to ponder. One would suspect that sizing dies, ala bushing could be made up from scratch to do the shoulder and necking procedure..........maybe then use a full length 30 Luger sizer to do the body????. Two respective reamers (chamber/full length sizer)are a fair investment nowadays from PTG. There are ways to use a chamber reamer with specialized materials, ie the cavity gets smaller with procedures after reaming, but kinda advanced for a stone cutter like me.

I have always dreamed about one of these 22, 24, or 25 bullets on a 30 Luger in the Luger pistol. If one liked the 30 because of the way it carried out to the target, then the 22 might be more better.

Sounds like a project for you huh?...............

sheepherder · 03-02-2019, 03:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick W.

Sounds like a project for you huh?...............

I already did such a project, based on a Mauser C96. I used a shortened RCBS .223 Remington die set to form .223 Remington brass to ~1.000 (C96 30 cal length). I used a Clymer 256 Win Mag chambering reamer with a .25 cal barrel blank threaded to fit a cut-back C96 barrel extension. I posted a pic of the resulting mongrel some time back. It originally had a quite long barrel, but I shortened it to ~C96 length eventually. I still have the complete barrel/extension here somewhere (pic below).

It worked out very well, but I could not interest any of my then-buddies in it. They all wanted big bore magnums.

I still have my reloading notes, along with a couple hundred leftover bullets. I called it a 256 Cal Mauser.

Couldn't find the pic of the assembled 256 long-barrel C96...Just the barreled extension...And a pic of the shortened 256 Mauser barreled extension, with a pic (shown enlarged) of the '256 Mauser' cartridge...

Rick W. · 03-02-2019, 05:01 PM

Rich,

I have seen picts/articles on a 25/30 Luger with longish barrel that they claimed worked ok. More bullet weight helps I am sure, especially with the longer barrel.

Out of curosity, I dug out the modified 30 Luger die, and with some Wilson bushings necked down some 38 super cases. I did not put a lot of effort into the deal, the cases were shortened by hand, and just run thru the die with the respective bushings. So kinda rough, but shows the concept attempt.

The result is not quite what I wanted, but it is what it is. I think the shoulder is too sharp. Bullet length/weight really surprised me, have to find some old round nose hornet bullets or perhaps some of the lightweight babies on the market now....30-35gr; but that may work against the effort as far as repeatable function.

My slush fund is way down now, so no funds for custom reamers. I can make the dies from scratch, but that approach takes the basic reamer tooling to get there. I have not evaluated a shortened 256 win mag die or a 22 sabre cat die............but have extras of the 256 dies, so will take a cue and looksee how that might do...........

Maybe the fellow with the original working Luger will visit again and share more of how it did, was, and is..............always thought a little bullet in the Luger would be neat.

NECKED DOWN AFFAIR.jpg

sheepherder · 03-02-2019, 07:30 PM

Does anyone make a round nosed .223 cal bullet??? I haven't kept up with AR stuff.

If I could find a cheap/reasonable Luger barrel extension ["receiver"}, I would try a .22 Luger. I'd make the cartridges out of .223 Remington brass in a shortened RCBS .223 die set, like I did with the '256 Mauser'. That allows me to use a .223 (or 5.56mm) chambering reamer, which I already have. And AR-15 5.56/.223 die sets are cheap on eBay.

Even if no one makes a round nose bullet, it is not hard to make up a set of aluminum blocks to hold the pointed bullets while you mill them to a blunt nose. I've done similar work with 30 cal carbine bullets, but on those, I drill out the base to lighten them for 30 Mauser.

An amusing project. Sellers on eBay seldom separate the Luger barrel from the extension, and they seem to believe that a Luger barrel + extension is worth ~$400...

Maybe I'm living in 1985 but I won't pay that much for a barreled extension...

sheepherder · 03-02-2019, 08:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick W.

Out of curosity, I dug out the modified 30 Luger die, and with some Wilson bushings necked down some 38 super cases.

The .223 case is close enough to 9mm/7.65mm Parabellum cases to work (that's how we made 30 Luger & 30 Mauser cartridges back when you couldn't buy them). And If I'm only using the first inch or so of the chambering reamer, then I only need to make a spacer for the reloading dies, so the case goes in the same distance...Form with the expanding die. Seating die might require a special 'round/flat head' die insert...Or modify the spitzer insert...Depending on bullet used...Hmmm...

Correction: I would still need to cut down the .223 dies...I would not be using the base section...

DonVoigt · 03-02-2019, 07:58 PM

"Maybe I'm living in 1985 but I won't pay that much for a barreled extension... "

I agree,
but we are competing with those who will and do!

Thee is a rough one online now, maybe it will work for you.

sheepherder · 03-02-2019, 08:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DonVoigt

"Maybe I'm living in 1985 but I won't pay that much for a barreled extension... "

I agree,
but we are competing with those who will and do!

Thee is a rough one online now, maybe it will work for you.

I saw that one - "has been filed"...

Now I'm looking at the 30 cal 'frosty barrel' with an arty-notched extension...The extension has the C/N...But a commercial with a notch???

I've been toying with an idea for a while...A Luger barrel extension with a stub where the barrel would be...And different barrels that plug (or thread) into the stub...Sort of a quick-change barrel, but not as bulky as the one pictured several years ago...

Maybe even a quarter-twist stub & barrels...

Rick W. · 03-02-2019, 08:35 PM

The 38 special, 223, 357 wildcats have been around a while. Some use the DW360 or Largo even. The 17, 19 and 20 cal guys use a lot of rimmed 38/357/largo for their wildcats, with the same concept you presented on reusing a 223 or 223 AI reamer, works pretty well as you already know. I think that concept probably is more prudent than the idea of a specialized die being made up, then procuring a custom reamer. PTG grinds reamers fairly reasonably fwiw......comparatively speaking. Just different approaches I reckon.

I have a lot of old hornet and bee bullets, mostly Winchester that fall in the little bare nosed bullet category I think. Hard to find at times......so I went out and looked at this site:

https://www.midwayusa.com/s?userSear...temsPerPage=48

kinda surprising how many bullets under 50grs for the 22 bore.

I shoot a Smith Wesson 53 a fair amount, supposed to have the fairly rare 222 diameter bullets by Hornady, but the 223's are easier to get and are ok with my loads. I have looked into getting a Lee bullet sizer(30 bucks) to take 224 down to 223 or 223; just because of the bulk buys on 224's at times being presented.

In trying to come up to speed a little, I have learned that having the right brass can really help a project like this(base dimensions), Rich has already been thru most of that, I appreciate being reminded of such. Not looked at inside reaming or outside turning yet, but tis a custom project I remind myself.........

I hear you on parts pricing nowadays, everyone thinks they have a natural 401K...........I walk myself on those things. One will turn up somehow without paying the magical tolls, being on an inner circle sure helps.

Werle has a youtube or two on a Luger that shoots the longish 30 Mauser, the cartridges reside in the basic Luger magazine, but pretty upright. From the tube the cartridges seem to wanna feed even, never would have thunk it.............

I share the dream of a sub-caliber Luger, maybe someone will get there...............

............post it for me that will probably still be stumbling around in the dark.

sheepherder · 03-02-2019, 09:15 PM

I still have some of the test cases I used for a similar project...The loaded cartridge on the far right is a Fiocchi 30 Luger cartridge for comparison...

These were 5.56 cases, I didn't care if they were trashed...But they extruded quite well to the smaller diameter neck...

The one closest to a 30 Luger case would be acceptable...

sheepherder · 03-02-2019, 09:48 PM

I checked my box of die sets and lo & behold I have a spare set of .223 Remington dies!

They're in a soft plastic rack container, and that is something I would never buy. Either I got it with an AR-15 long ago, or someone gave it to me...

I much prefer the green hard case boxes.

Now to find a Luger barrel extension...

Ron Wood · 03-02-2019, 10:58 PM

Youze guys are nuts...but it is an entertaining kind of crazy, so keep the info going. Last one to blow up a gun wins.

03-02-2019, 02:05 PM	#1
sheepherder Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: ...on the 'ol Erie Canal... Posts: 8,208 Thanks: 1,425 Thanked 4,474 Times in 2,343 Posts	Interesting Old .22 Luger Thread I was prepared to respond to a comment by a new member on ripoffs and remembered one of junglejim's threads...I found it but Jim has not posted in over nine years... It involved a Luger carbine... http://forum.lugerforum.com/showthread.php?t=21822 IMO, it should be a sticky, and a warning... But that is not the thread I wanted to talk about here... Jim posted pics of his .22 Luger conversion done by John G. Lawson which used a custom wildcat .22 bottleneck cartridge. I do a bit of wildcatting and found it interesting. Some of the newer members (and RickW and Sieger) may find it interesting as well. http://forum.lugerforum.com/showthread.php?t=22199 If junglejim is still around, perhaps he could expound on this fascinating conversion... __________________ I like my coffee the way I like my women... ...Cold and bitter...

03-02-2019, 07:30 PM	#5
sheepherder Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: ...on the 'ol Erie Canal... Posts: 8,208 Thanks: 1,425 Thanked 4,474 Times in 2,343 Posts	Does anyone make a round nosed .223 cal bullet??? I haven't kept up with AR stuff. If I could find a cheap/reasonable Luger barrel extension ["receiver"}, I would try a .22 Luger. I'd make the cartridges out of .223 Remington brass in a shortened RCBS .223 die set, like I did with the '256 Mauser'. That allows me to use a .223 (or 5.56mm) chambering reamer, which I already have. And AR-15 5.56/.223 die sets are cheap on eBay. Even if no one makes a round nose bullet, it is not hard to make up a set of aluminum blocks to hold the pointed bullets while you mill them to a blunt nose. I've done similar work with 30 cal carbine bullets, but on those, I drill out the base to lighten them for 30 Mauser. An amusing project. Sellers on eBay seldom separate the Luger barrel from the extension, and they seem to believe that a Luger barrel + extension is worth ~$400... Maybe I'm living in 1985 but I won't pay that much for a barreled extension... __________________ I like my coffee the way I like my women... ...Cold and bitter...

03-02-2019, 07:58 PM	#7
DonVoigt User Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: near Charlotte NC Posts: 4,681 Thanks: 1,443 Thanked 4,356 Times in 2,041 Posts	"Maybe I'm living in 1985 but I won't pay that much for a barreled extension... " I agree, but we are competing with those who will and do! Thee is a rough one online now, maybe it will work for you. __________________ 03man(Don Voigt); Luger student and collector. Looking for DWM side plate: 69 ; Dreyse 1907 pistol K.S. Gendarmerie

03-02-2019, 08:35 PM	#9
Rick W. User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 339 Thanks: 81 Thanked 359 Times in 198 Posts	The 38 special, 223, 357 wildcats have been around a while. Some use the DW360 or Largo even. The 17, 19 and 20 cal guys use a lot of rimmed 38/357/largo for their wildcats, with the same concept you presented on reusing a 223 or 223 AI reamer, works pretty well as you already know. I think that concept probably is more prudent than the idea of a specialized die being made up, then procuring a custom reamer. PTG grinds reamers fairly reasonably fwiw......comparatively speaking. Just different approaches I reckon. I have a lot of old hornet and bee bullets, mostly Winchester that fall in the little bare nosed bullet category I think. Hard to find at times......so I went out and looked at this site: https://www.midwayusa.com/s?userSear...temsPerPage=48 kinda surprising how many bullets under 50grs for the 22 bore. I shoot a Smith Wesson 53 a fair amount, supposed to have the fairly rare 222 diameter bullets by Hornady, but the 223's are easier to get and are ok with my loads. I have looked into getting a Lee bullet sizer(30 bucks) to take 224 down to 223 or 223; just because of the bulk buys on 224's at times being presented. In trying to come up to speed a little, I have learned that having the right brass can really help a project like this(base dimensions), Rich has already been thru most of that, I appreciate being reminded of such. Not looked at inside reaming or outside turning yet, but tis a custom project I remind myself......... I hear you on parts pricing nowadays, everyone thinks they have a natural 401K...........I walk myself on those things. One will turn up somehow without paying the magical tolls, being on an inner circle sure helps. Werle has a youtube or two on a Luger that shoots the longish 30 Mauser, the cartridges reside in the basic Luger magazine, but pretty upright. From the tube the cartridges seem to wanna feed even, never would have thunk it............. I share the dream of a sub-caliber Luger, maybe someone will get there...........................post it for me that will probably still be stumbling around in the dark.

03-02-2019, 10:58 PM	#12
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,051 Thanks: 1,120 Thanked 5,287 Times in 1,728 Posts	Youze guys are nuts...but it is an entertaining kind of crazy, so keep the info going. Last one to blow up a gun wins. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

03-02-2019, 03:14 PM	#2
Rick W. User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 339 Thanks: 81 Thanked 359 Times in 198 Posts	Rich, some years ago the late Hugh C. talked with me about a 22/30 Luger. He referred to it as the 22 Lowenstein, guy from San Fran area maybe..? So being the new kid on the block, I had a Lee 30 Luger die modified by Christensen for a bushing top. Played with the bushing die a little, but my confidence level at the time was not up to doing a converted Luger. Hugh offered me a Luger barrel in the caliber above with some brass, not sure about the dies anymore, but I had to decline. Somewhat to my regret today but time goes on. I was still in the trying to not screw up basic threading at the time. Hugh and I talked about about zip to move the toggle like it should, and both had some reservations about making a 22/30 Luger repeater work well, versus beating the toggle to death. Maybe some of the newer powders of today along with a heavier bullet might help that some. I notice the barrel is fairly petite, one way to get around the above issue. With the pistol shown saying working..........gives new hope to me at least. I have always thought it could be done, but one might have to make some concessions. I have spare 30 Luger reamers that could be reground by PTG for a 22 front; just something for me to ponder. One would suspect that sizing dies, ala bushing could be made up from scratch to do the shoulder and necking procedure..........maybe then use a full length 30 Luger sizer to do the body????. Two respective reamers (chamber/full length sizer)are a fair investment nowadays from PTG. There are ways to use a chamber reamer with specialized materials, ie the cavity gets smaller with procedures after reaming, but kinda advanced for a stone cutter like me. I have always dreamed about one of these 22, 24, or 25 bullets on a 30 Luger in the Luger pistol. If one liked the 30 because of the way it carried out to the target, then the 22 might be more better. Sounds like a project for you huh?...............

03-02-2019, 05:01 PM	#4
Rick W. User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 339 Thanks: 81 Thanked 359 Times in 198 Posts	Rich, I have seen picts/articles on a 25/30 Luger with longish barrel that they claimed worked ok. More bullet weight helps I am sure, especially with the longer barrel. Out of curosity, I dug out the modified 30 Luger die, and with some Wilson bushings necked down some 38 super cases. I did not put a lot of effort into the deal, the cases were shortened by hand, and just run thru the die with the respective bushings. So kinda rough, but shows the concept attempt. The result is not quite what I wanted, but it is what it is. I think the shoulder is too sharp. Bullet length/weight really surprised me, have to find some old round nose hornet bullets or perhaps some of the lightweight babies on the market now....30-35gr; but that may work against the effort as far as repeatable function. My slush fund is way down now, so no funds for custom reamers. I can make the dies from scratch, but that approach takes the basic reamer tooling to get there. I have not evaluated a shortened 256 win mag die or a 22 sabre cat die............but have extras of the 256 dies, so will take a cue and looksee how that might do........... Maybe the fellow with the original working Luger will visit again and share more of how it did, was, and is..............always thought a little bullet in the Luger would be neat. NECKED DOWN AFFAIR.jpg