Side plate Switch! Results updated! 5-5-15

[DonVoigt]

I recently posted my 1917/1920 Artillery matching except for the side plate which was a modern repro and looked ugly!

I also posted the G date shooter. Four of the reasons I wanted the shooter was:

1) It is mismatched and I won't hurt it if I have to change a part
2) It is a nice looking G date Mauser
3) It happened to come with an un-numbered, original side plate,
cut for a sear safey, with nice finish
4) It contained a single proof, Un-numbered Erfurt mag.

After thinking a bit, I decided to switch the side plates between the Artillery and the Shooter. The un-numbered original side plate fit the Artillery perfectly and is a very close match in finish, hurrah!

And the repro plate looks and functions fine in the Shooter- well
at least it does after spending 1.5 hours fitting it to the G date.

And the un-marked Erfurt armorer's mag now resides in the
1917/1920 Artillery.

I did not expect to have an unmarked side plate fall into my lap, but I am Happy!

Since they both function well, there should be no further issues to address, but the shooter goes to the range tomorrow for test firing to be certain.

Pictures show before and after of each:
1- top photo is the Artillery before with the repro plate, second is the artillery with the original replacement
3rd is the G date with original un-numbered but replacement plate, last and bottom is the G date with the fitted repro plate.

I think they both look "better", and the Artillery is closer to period than it was.

Thanks for looking.

[Edward Tinker]

nice - I like the artillerys of course, but G dates are nice because they are early.

Ed

[Sergio Natali]

Don

I agree with you, I'm not that expert on artillery Luges, but take into consideration that "G" dates were made in 1935 only about 55K of them were made, and if you consider that probably many went lost/destroied during the WWII I think they are pretty scarce.

Sergio

[DonVoigt]

Took the shooter to the range today, fired three mags with assorted
9mm rounds, some fmj some hp, all with no issues.

Only problem was the last round fired would not set the hold open;
manually cocked on an empty mag and it holds. Got to do a little investigation. Same result with 3 different mags, two modern, one 2 inspection Erfurt.

[John Sabato]

Remove the right grip and test fire the gun to the last round. Does it hold open? If so, the right grip will require that some wood be shaved slightly to allow free movement of the magazine follower button at the top of its travel. This button is what pushes up the holdopen to lock back the toggle on the last shot. If your symptoms remain the same, especially with 3 different magazines, I would suspect that either the ammunition is underpowered (not very likely) or that the mainspring may be just a tad too powerful or too long preventing full travel of the toggle when fired.

Also inspect the hold open notch on the underside of the breech block, and the hold open itself to see if the edges are damaged or overly worn so that it will only catch when the toggle is gently pulled back by hand.

Let us know what you find...

[Lugerdoc]

Don, IMHO your G date shooter requires either hotter ammo or a lighter recoil spring to hold open after the last round. Also believe both side plates shown to be repro with just a difference in finish. TH

[DonVoigt]

Tom,
I would agree except the side plate now on the Artillery is cut for a sear safety on top and has a small "T" inside.

What do you make of those?

Yes, the recoil spring is pretty "stiff", so that may be the problem or a big part of it. Will try loading "hotter" rounds first in the mag, i.e. last round, to see if that works.
Shooting will help too!

Thanks.

[kurusu]

Originally Posted by DonVoigt

Took the shooter to the range today, fired three mags with assorted
9mm rounds, some fmj some hp, all with no issues.

Only problem was the last round fired would not set the hold open;
manually cocked on an empty mag and it holds. Got to do a little investigation. Same result with 3 different mags, two modern, one 2 inspection Erfurt.

If the rounds feed fine I wouldn't bother a second if the hold open doesn't work.

I generally remove the hold open when shooting. One less part that can possibly break. And they do break quite often.

[DonVoigt]

Originally Posted by kurusu

If the rounds feed fine I wouldn't bother a second if the hold open doesn't work.

I generally remove the hold open when shooting. One less part that can possibly break. And they do break quite often.

That is sound advice, but I'm a little particular or is it peculiar- if it has one, it should work!

I may get a substitute for the numbered hold open, but since the pistol has parts from 3 pistols and a repro side plate, little will be lost if it breaks. Now a matching pistol would be quite different.

[kurusu]

Originally Posted by DonVoigt

That is sound advice, but I'm a little particular or is it peculiar- if it has one, it should work!

I may get a substitute for the numbered hold open, but since the pistol has parts from 3 pistols and a repro side plate, little will be lost if it breaks. Now a matching pistol would be quite different.

Well, if you really want the hold open to operate you should follow John Sabato's advices to improve function instead of trying hotter loads.
I know for a fact that Lugers aren't made of glass but there's no reason to tempt the devil.

[Ron Wood]

Originally Posted by DonVoigt

Tom,
I would agree except the side plate now on the Artillery is cut for a sear safety on top and has a small "T" inside.

What do you make of those?

Yes, the recoil spring is pretty "stiff", so that may be the problem or a big part of it. Will try loading "hotter" rounds first in the mag, i.e. last round, to see if that works.
Shooting will help too!

Thanks.

I think your side plate cut for a sear safety is one produced by the East German firm of Ernst Thälmann Werke in Suhl. Forum member "Vlim" posted a super pair of Thälmann manufactured Lugers that have the same type of side plate. East Germany tooled up to produce a small run of newly made Luger pistols. Apparently they used a former police modified Luger as a pattern as they used that pattern to drill the frame and cut the side plate for the installation of a sear safety but never installed the device. Your side plate may be a spare part that they made.

[DonVoigt]

Originally Posted by kurusu

Well, if you really want the hold open to operate you should follow John Sabato's advices to improve function instead of trying hotter loads.
I know for a fact that Lugers aren't made of glass but there's no reason to tempt the devil.

kurusu,
thanks for your post. I never said I would try hotter loads.
I fired mixed rounds of standard factory ammo, "hp" means hollow point vs "FMJ" = ball. May try 124g instead of 115g bullets too.

I have investigated Wolf Gunsprings main springs and they offer them in three "strengths" 2lbs rating apart, I may dis-remember, but IIRC they are 42, 44, 46 lb springs.

They are so easy to change I may just try them.

I've been an on and off gunsmith for 50 years, I have seen 2 kinds of lugers, those that work and
those that don't want too!

More later when I get time to shoot again!

[DonVoigt]

Originally Posted by Ron Wood

I think your side plate cut for a sear safety is one produced by the East German firm of Ernst Thälmann Werke in Suhl. Forum member "Vlim" posted a super pair of Thälmann manufactured Lugers that have the same type of side plate. East Germany tooled up to produce a small run of newly made Luger pistols. Apparently they used a former police modified Luger as a pattern as they used that pattern to drill the frame and cut the side plate for the installation of a sear safety but never installed the device. Your side plate may be a spare part that they made.

Ron, that makes some sense, fits maybe to a "T", thanks much.
I remember that post, I'll find it and re-read and check out the
side plates specifically.

I'd really like to understand the source of that side plate as it really does not look like modern work.

[rhuff]

Originally Posted by DonVoigt

I have seen 2 kinds of lugers, those that work and
those that don't want too!!

I am real familiar with your second category of lugers... LOL

[DonVoigt]

I believe "we", Tim H. and I have solved the mystery of the funky side plate with the "T" on the inside and the sear safety cut out.

Someone has milled the outside surface down to remove either a number or pitting or ??
That is why there is a border around the rectangular hump, that much metal has been removed, leaving a "ledge".

I believe it should be considered a "messed with" original!

So I am still looking for a nice side plate DWM # 14, or blank.

Thanks for all the comments and help.

[DonVoigt]

Ok, test fired yesterday with some logic.

Conclusion:
Everything matters! Ammo, magazine, and how you hold the pistol.

Firing the G date shooter- with the strong mainspring that would not hold open:

1- three magazines used- two worked fine, one did not; this is with each of the ammo types through each mag.

2- Would set the hold open and catch the toggle with:
124 g Nyclad hollow pts
115 g Fiocchi ball
Win-Western silver tip hollow points
124 g nato spec ammo

3- Would not set the hold open/toggle with:
"factory" reloads 115g ball
S & B 115g ball
Federal 115 g ball
Remington round nose hollow points
Remington golden sabre

All above standard 9mm P, None is/was +P

Mag that would not work consistently was a blued new Mec Gar; but oddly enough a
new chrome Mec Gar worked fine, as did an original wood base WWI mag.

Even stranger, the blue Mec Gar worked fine including the hold open on a DWM Commercial .30.

See first statement- Everything matters! Maybe even the barometric pressure.

"Limp wristing" will negate any and all of the above!!

But I am satisfied now, the G date shooter will work properly with the right ammo, magazine, and a good stiff hold!

[John Sabato]

Use of "124 g NATO spec ammo" is NOT recommended in a Luger. It was designed for use in the modern submachine guns and late model military handguns. It is much too hot for the Luger design.

[DonVoigt]

Thanks John,
I won't use it then, as there are other options!

However, it did not seem appreciably different when fired.

I wonder if anyone here has the nato specs?

[K.Wilhelm]

Don- no, I don't have the specs on 9mm Nato rounds; but I do have the "specs" on John's knowledge and wisdom, and follow his advice.

Lugers are "funny" in a number of respects, one of them being magazines. Some Lugers work well with a number of different mags, and others not so much. Some Lugers seem to "like" only one type of mag. Bill

[ithacaartist]

At this point, I have as much, or more, experience with Erma toggle pistols. The difference in mags shows up with them, too--particularly the .22lr models, which have front feed lips that are important to proper feeding. Their adjustment is rather critical, and varies by brand of ammo because of slight differences in bullet shapes. I keep the mags that work in particular pistols marked for the pistols. Same with the ammo.