Mystery Luger frame

Olle · 09-30-2013, 10:09 PM

I just found a Luger frame that doesn't have any markings, other than "gesichert" above the safety. No serial, no proofs, no nothing. I can't see any signs of grinding either, it's like it was never stamped with a serial number. It's finished inside and out (appears to be a hot caustic blue), it has the stock lug and it's cut for a hold open catch. It appears to be unused, there's no wear in the usual places and it has some light surface rust as if it has been sitting somewhere for a long time.

So does anybody know what this could be. A replacement part? Factory reject? I got it to to build a project gun, but I would really like to know what it is before I start working on it.

ithacaartist · 09-30-2013, 10:55 PM

Ollie,

A thread that dates maybe within the last year or two depicts and discusses the techniques and order in which the manufacturers machined out the inside, rear portion of the Luger frame. As I recall, each was distinctive, and thus an otherwise unmarked frame could be identified as to which setups and orders of tooling were used to create it.

Olle · 10-02-2013, 08:10 AM

I remember seeing that thread, have to look it up. Any ideas on why it doesn't have a serial number?

alanint · 10-02-2013, 08:26 AM

Is it otherwise completely finished and ready to accept parts?

There are many stories of end of war/post war GIs visiting the German gun factories and helping themselves to anything that was lying around. This may be the source of this frame.

mrerick · 10-02-2013, 08:55 AM

I created a post that shows unique machining for a variety of frame producers in the rear interior area of the frame. It's at:

http://forum.lugerforum.com/showthre...ht=frame+study

This might help you.

Does the frame have the Mauser hump at the rear?

Marc

Olle · 10-02-2013, 06:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alanint

Is it otherwise completely finished and ready to accept parts?

There are many stories of end of war/post war GIs visiting the German gun factories and helping themselves to anything that was lying around. This may be the source of this frame.

Yes, it seems to be finished and ready to assemble. I assume that these guns were fitted and numbered before they were blued, so what throws me off is that it's blued and doesn't have a serial number. It could be reblued, but it doesn't show any dings, dents or anything else that would indicate that it has been used.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrerick

I created a post that shows unique machining for a variety of frame producers in the rear interior area of the frame. It's at:

http://forum.lugerforum.com/showthre...ht=frame+study

This might help you.

Does the frame have the Mauser hump at the rear?

Marc

It doesn't have the Mauser hump, and the milling looks like the DWMs in the link. I still need to take pictures, that should give you a better idea of which version it is.

One funny thing is that I tried a set of grips on it, and they wouldn't fit very well. It's like the grip frame is a tad too short. I guess that some hand fitting would be normal, but none of the two sets I tried would fit. One set is old and worn and has a sloppy fit on my other Lugers, but on this frame I couldn't even press them on.

Olle · 10-02-2013, 06:32 PM

I ran out on the deck and snapped a few pictures, I hope they are good enough for a positive ID.

alanint · 10-02-2013, 06:59 PM

This frame shows none of the buffing and polish you would expect from a finished pistol. I suspect an almost completed forging off the factory floor taken by some GI.

SteveM · 10-02-2013, 07:02 PM

Could a pic of the stock lug from the side and the back be posted?

Olle · 10-02-2013, 09:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alanint

This frame shows none of the buffing and polish you would expect from a finished pistol. I suspect an almost completed forging off the factory floor taken by some GI.

It seems like it has had a nice finish, it's just a bit rough from the surface rust. Some spots are actually pretty shiny. My best guess is that it's a replacement part, I can't see any other reason for it to be both unnumbered and blued.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SteveM

Could a pic of the stock lug from the side and the back be posted?

Ok, I'll try and do that later.

John Sabato · 10-03-2013, 10:49 AM

you should have it glass-bead blasted to remove the surface rust and that will leave a nice matte finish for bluing...

While you say that it shows no sign of grinding, the only way to be sure is to fit an upper receiver and if the upper receiver protrudes past the lower frame rails, then it may have been carefully ground before finishing... to remove the number.

My first take is that it is all you represent it to be... an un-numbered frame, and not one where the number has been removed. I believe the manufacturer is DWM... it looks closest to the milling marks shown in the thread mentioned previously above...

Just my $0.02 Spend it wisely...

Sergio Natali · 10-03-2013, 11:11 AM

I think Doug is right, it looks like a rough/unfinished frame.

Ben M. · 10-03-2013, 01:02 PM

could you show a view looking at the bottom portion of the trigger guard where it starts to blend into the metal of the front grip strap? a view directly from in front of the gun.

Olle · 10-03-2013, 07:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by luger.parabellum

I think Doug is right, it looks like a rough/unfinished frame.

It may look like that in the pictures, but in person it has the appearance of a 100% completed frame. It even has the lanyard loop, and installing that would more than likely be the last step before bluing. The "gesichert" stamp would also be one of the very last "finishing touches".

Anywho, here's some detail shots of the trigger guard/front strap and the stock lug:

Ben M. · 10-03-2013, 08:59 PM

i was thinking the v-shape of the trigger guard as its metal becomes part of the front grip strap is what gibson indicated is a krieghoff luger trait. but i just do not know enough about those lugers other than what is in the gibson book.

maybe others know more?

SteveM · 10-04-2013, 07:59 AM

The lack of a "dimple" in the stock lug leads me to believe that it is not a Mauser frame. I'm with Ben in thinking that it is a Krieghoff because of the tapering of the trigger guard as it blends into the gripstrap.

Olle · 10-04-2013, 08:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SteveM

The lack of a "dimple" in the stock lug leads me to believe that it is not a Mauser frame. I'm with Ben in thinking that it is a Krieghoff because of the tapering of the trigger guard as it blends into the gripstrap.

It does have a dimple. It's not very visible in the side view, but I assume that this is what you're referring to:

SteveM · 10-04-2013, 08:47 AM

The pic shows the location. I will try to get a pic up today that illustrates what it looks like. I'm not a machinist but to me it looks like it is where the cutting tool either stopped or started when this was machined on Mauser frames.

alanint · 10-04-2013, 08:51 AM

What a great project frame to make up a suppressed, sanitized "Gestapo" assasin's gun!!

Olle · 10-04-2013, 09:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SteveM

The pic shows the location. I will try to get a pic up today that illustrates what it looks like. I'm not a machinist but to me it looks like it is where the cutting tool either stopped or started when this was machined on Mauser frames.

Aha, so that's what you were referring to. I'd say you're right, this must have something to do with the machining sequence. I see it now and then when machining grooves, using a plunge cut as a starting point.

Quote:

Originally Posted by alanint

What a great project frame to make up a suppressed, sanitized "Gestapo" assasin's gun!!

I'm not sure if I can buy a suppressor right now (read: My wife probably won't let me), but it might be a candidate for my "SS Panzer" barrel: http://forum.lugerforum.com/showthread.php?t=30581

Then again, if this turns out to be a Krieghoff frame, it might be a better idea to leave it as is and trade for another frame.

09-30-2013, 10:09 PM	#1
Olle User Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Tennessee Posts: 1,149 Thanks: 159 Thanked 663 Times in 318 Posts	Mystery Luger frame I just found a Luger frame that doesn't have any markings, other than "gesichert" above the safety. No serial, no proofs, no nothing. I can't see any signs of grinding either, it's like it was never stamped with a serial number. It's finished inside and out (appears to be a hot caustic blue), it has the stock lug and it's cut for a hold open catch. It appears to be unused, there's no wear in the usual places and it has some light surface rust as if it has been sitting somewhere for a long time. So does anybody know what this could be. A replacement part? Factory reject? I got it to to build a project gun, but I would really like to know what it is before I start working on it.

09-30-2013, 10:55 PM	#2
ithacaartist Twice a Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Atop the highest hill in Schuyler County NY Posts: 3,283 Thanks: 7,007 Thanked 2,476 Times in 1,319 Posts	Ollie, A thread that dates maybe within the last year or two depicts and discusses the techniques and order in which the manufacturers machined out the inside, rear portion of the Luger frame. As I recall, each was distinctive, and thus an otherwise unmarked frame could be identified as to which setups and orders of tooling were used to create it. __________________ "... Liberty is the seed and soil, the air and light, the dew and rain of progress, love and joy."-- Robert Greene Ingersoll 1894

10-02-2013, 08:55 AM	#5
mrerick Super Moderator - Patron LugerForum Life Patron Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Eastern North Carolina, USA Posts: 3,900 Thanks: 1,370 Thanked 3,094 Times in 1,503 Posts	I created a post that shows unique machining for a variety of frame producers in the rear interior area of the frame. It's at: http://forum.lugerforum.com/showthre...ht=frame+study This might help you. Does the frame have the Mauser hump at the rear? Marc __________________ Igitur si vis pacem, para bellum - - Therefore if you want peace, prepare for war.

10-02-2013, 06:32 PM	#7
Olle User Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Tennessee Posts: 1,149 Thanks: 159 Thanked 663 Times in 318 Posts	I ran out on the deck and snapped a few pictures, I hope they are good enough for a positive ID. Attached Thumbnails

10-03-2013, 10:49 AM	#11
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,150 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	you should have it glass-bead blasted to remove the surface rust and that will leave a nice matte finish for bluing... While you say that it shows no sign of grinding, the only way to be sure is to fit an upper receiver and if the upper receiver protrudes past the lower frame rails, then it may have been carefully ground before finishing... to remove the number. My first take is that it is all you represent it to be... an un-numbered frame, and not one where the number has been removed. I believe the manufacturer is DWM... it looks closest to the milling marks shown in the thread mentioned previously above... Just my $0.02 Spend it wisely... __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

10-02-2013, 08:10 AM	#3
Olle User Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Tennessee Posts: 1,149 Thanks: 159 Thanked 663 Times in 318 Posts	I remember seeing that thread, have to look it up. Any ideas on why it doesn't have a serial number?

10-02-2013, 08:26 AM	#4
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,916 Times in 1,192 Posts	Is it otherwise completely finished and ready to accept parts? There are many stories of end of war/post war GIs visiting the German gun factories and helping themselves to anything that was lying around. This may be the source of this frame.

10-02-2013, 06:59 PM	#8
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,916 Times in 1,192 Posts	This frame shows none of the buffing and polish you would expect from a finished pistol. I suspect an almost completed forging off the factory floor taken by some GI.

10-02-2013, 07:02 PM	#9
SteveM User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Texas Posts: 1,016 Thanks: 94 Thanked 275 Times in 137 Posts	Could a pic of the stock lug from the side and the back be posted?

10-03-2013, 11:11 AM	#12
Sergio Natali User Join Date: Feb 2013 Location: Somewhere in Northern Italy Posts: 2,646 Thanks: 1,082 Thanked 1,783 Times in 1,007 Posts	I think Doug is right, it looks like a rough/unfinished frame. __________________ "Originality can't be restored and should be at the top of any collector's priority list.

10-03-2013, 01:02 PM	#13
Ben M. User Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Retired to Naples, FL. Posts: 474 Thanks: 82 Thanked 117 Times in 79 Posts	could you show a view looking at the bottom portion of the trigger guard where it starts to blend into the metal of the front grip strap? a view directly from in front of the gun.

10-03-2013, 08:59 PM	#15
Ben M. User Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Retired to Naples, FL. Posts: 474 Thanks: 82 Thanked 117 Times in 79 Posts	i was thinking the v-shape of the trigger guard as its metal becomes part of the front grip strap is what gibson indicated is a krieghoff luger trait. but i just do not know enough about those lugers other than what is in the gibson book. maybe others know more?

10-04-2013, 07:59 AM	#16
SteveM User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Texas Posts: 1,016 Thanks: 94 Thanked 275 Times in 137 Posts	The lack of a "dimple" in the stock lug leads me to believe that it is not a Mauser frame. I'm with Ben in thinking that it is a Krieghoff because of the tapering of the trigger guard as it blends into the gripstrap. Attached Images

10-04-2013, 08:47 AM	#18
SteveM User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Texas Posts: 1,016 Thanks: 94 Thanked 275 Times in 137 Posts	The pic shows the location. I will try to get a pic up today that illustrates what it looks like. I'm not a machinist but to me it looks like it is where the cutting tool either stopped or started when this was machined on Mauser frames. Attached Images

10-04-2013, 08:51 AM	#19
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,916 Times in 1,192 Posts	What a great project frame to make up a suppressed, sanitized "Gestapo" assasin's gun!!