New to me Broomhandle

cdmech · 02-15-2012, 07:48 PM

I bought Mauser C96 Broomhandle to keep my Luger company. Today I got to shoot a few rounds of new Fiocchi 88gr. 7.63 ammo through it and I love it!
I do have a question about how the trigger functions and since there has been some C96 discussions here lately was hoping someone familiar with these could help.
The hammer doesn't always drop when the triggger is pulled. You can feel a very distinct "click" but nothing will happen. The next pull everything will work fine. I'm studying the mechanism trying to better understand how it works, and don't see any obviously worn or ill fitting parts. The same "click" can be felt in the trigger even if the hammer isn't cocked and seems to be made between the lock frame and the disconnector as it lifts the sear.
Is such a "click" normal, or do I have parts that aren't fitting well?
The gun is a MM, but all the numbered parts on the lock match the body. The barrel/extension and locking block match each other, but not the rest of the gun.
Any common problems that might keep the hammer from dropping I should look for?
Thanks for any input.
Marc

alvin · 02-15-2012, 08:01 PM

Pull the trigger and feel the "click" is not normal on this variation (only normal on those pre-1900 ones).

When you pull the trigger, the trigger raises the sear arm and sear arm raises the sear to release the cocked hammer. On this variation, the sear arm does not disconnect from the trigger top until the rocker plunger pushes it away from the the trigger during the barrel recoil. So, if the gun is empty, pull the trigger, no "click". If you hold the trigger, and use the other hand to push the barrel back a few millimeters, you will feel the "click" -- the gun is unlocked and the sear arm is disconnected from the trigger. That's on a normal gun. Then, you release the barrel, and slowly release the trigger, you will feel the trigger re-engaged with sear arm. This is the way I check a gun during gun show without disassembling it.

On this one, I guess either the sear arm is not numbered to the gun (it's a numbered part on this variation), or it's too worn.

padredan · 02-15-2012, 08:50 PM

nice one marc

cdmech · 02-15-2012, 09:07 PM

Thanks for the response. Maybe these pictures might help. Just holding the locking block in my hand I can feel a "click" as I lift the disconnector. it rubs where I marked the picture with a red arrow. The number 709 matches the rest of the lock assembly.
Marc

alvin · 02-16-2012, 07:00 AM

The lock frame looks healthy from the picture. But hammer down, pull the trigger, the trigger is not supposed to disconnect on this variation. You may want to save this matching sear arm and install another sear arm on it to see the problem goes away or not, to isolate the problem.

cdmech · 02-16-2012, 07:43 AM

I have found one company online that has these parts.
http://www.kbtacticalstar.com/index....50d2da6c9b79e5
Have you delt with them before? Do you know of any other good sources of parts?
Thanks,
Marc

alvin · 02-16-2012, 07:56 AM

I have not bought from them so no experience. I bought a 1930 sear arm from Tom (forum member) in the past. Tom may have one. Original Mauser parts are becoming hard to find and price is rising.

sheepherder · 02-16-2012, 08:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cdmech

I have found one company online that has these parts.
http://www.kbtacticalstar.com/index....50d2da6c9b79e5

Interesting...here's a part I had not seen offered before -

Sanshi .45ACP Broomhandle Stripper Clip
New condition Fits Sanshi .45ACP Broomhandle $8.99 each

...Huh???...

Someone makes a 45 broomhandle???

...I guess so...

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=273490591

alvin · 02-16-2012, 09:01 AM

Back in 1920s, a warlord in Shansei province (China) made around 8500 those .45acp broomhandles. It was not hot at that time at all -- the volume was too small, and the quality was inferior comparing with those of German ones or Spanish ones. In 1950s, most of them were dumped into blast furnace during the "Great Leap Forward Movement" to contribute their steel weight. If history continues in its normal track, that should be end of this 45acp broomhandle.

But, this 45acp gun found its 2nd (actually, 1st) favoritism in 1980s, due to some newly assembled ones were imported into the United States. So far, the best description I found was this one (copied from the link below):

"Between the years 1985-1990 approximately 350 of these guns were imported into the US from TTN International in Taiwan through three different importers, Navy Arms being one of them. One of the importers IAR managed to import broken guns and parts and assembled them in the US. They didn't function very well, if at all. There were no guns recently produced by the Chinese for export. That is a rumor. It would have cost the Chinese government thousands of dollars to remake machinery to produce these guns. The original machinery was destroyed when China was taken over by the Communists."

See:
http://www.gunsinternational.com/Bro...n_id=100231770

cdmech · 02-18-2012, 06:21 PM

I ordered the disconnector and sear bar from KB international http://www.kbtacticalstar.com/
They seemed to be the only people around that had them. I got an email from them the next day saying my parts shipped so I'll let you know when I get them. I did find that they had a very good disassembly video on youtube
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M7Y1dAtQXug
and seem to be very interested in broomhandles. I hope they are good company to deal with.
Marc

cdmech · 02-21-2012, 09:04 PM

I recieved today the parts I ordered. KB International gets an A+ in my book.
Marc

alvin · 02-21-2012, 09:07 PM

Does this new sear arm solve the gun's problem?

cdmech · 02-21-2012, 09:12 PM

No, I'm going to post some pictures and ask for some more ideas,
Thanks,
Marc

cdmech · 02-21-2012, 09:57 PM

Here are some pictures I hope can illustrate my problem. Any help is greatly appreciated.
If I assemble the Lock Frame and Locking Block into the Body, the Trigger functions like I think it should. As can be seen in the last three pictures, the Trigger will hold the Sear Bar away from the Hammer with the Locking Block in the "ready to fire" position. Moving the Locking Block to the "discharge" position disengages the Disconnector from the Trigger as is should.
When the Lock Frame and Locking Block are assembled onto the Barrel and Extension, the Locking Block pushed the plunger far enough back to move the Disconnector rearward until the trigger barely touches it and just flicks it enough to sometimes release the Hammer. This is the "clicking" noise I hear and feel. I tried to show in the pictures how much the Locking Block moves on the Locking Frame when assembled on the Barrel Extension by drawing a line on the two parts with a felt pen in the second and third picture. Is this excessive?
In the first picture you can see how the Plunger has slightly moved the Disconnector back in the Sear Bar and exposed the little tab that holds it in place.
I've been told a lot of hand fitting went into these pistols, and I'm thinking that my parts just need to be fitted better.
Thanks for any opinions,
Marc

alvin · 02-22-2012, 06:08 AM

In your original description "The hammer doesn't always drop when the triggger is pulled. You can feel a very distinct 'click' but nothing will happen." -- so firing did not happen, barrel, bolt lock, rocker plunger did NOT move. Nothing pushed sear arm away from the trigger and the trigger disconnected from the sear arm simply by pulling it (I guess that's where the 'click' came from). Trigger and sear arm fitting is needed on this gun, so the trigger won't disconnect by itself before the sear is raised high enough to release the hammer.

cdmech · 02-24-2012, 07:36 PM

I decided to try a different plunger on my broomhandle, still thinking that it shouldn't be pushing the disconnector back when assembling the pistol to the barrell and extension. I orded one from KB International and got it today. Again I have to give this company an A+. I was very pleased to see that the new plunger was actually shorter than my original as shown in the pictures. Now when I assemble the pistol the trigger makes solid contact with the disconnector and lifts the sear bar without disconnecting unless the barrell and extension is pushed back into a discharge position.

Marc

alvin · 02-24-2012, 08:10 PM

It's great to know that you solved this problem!

After selling a few C96s, I realized that selling was over-done. I don't have a gun to shoot anymore..... so I decided to buy one back.

Very quickly I found one. The seller already agreed to sell it to me cheap if no one else wanted it. Unfortunately, another guy wanted it and pumped the price up. Anyway, I still got it. Will have some fun in range soon.

cdmech · 02-24-2012, 09:54 PM

20 years ago I purchased my very first gun. A beautiful Winchester M1 Garand through the CMP. I had absolutely no interest in guns whatsover but my new father-in-law insisted I buy one with him. I paid about $180 dollars. I didn't have the gun very long when I traded it and some cash for a rusty old Ford. When my new wife found out she was VERY mad and I had to go beg the guy to sell it back to me. Her dad taught her to NEVER sell guns. I had told they guy it was probably worth about $500 bucks, so he sold it back to me for $700. (that part I didn't tell my wife). Fortunately for me today my wife was smarter than I was.
Marc

Douglas Jr. · 02-25-2012, 12:17 PM

Marc,

Congratulations for your now fixed Broomhandle, for your nice Garand and for your great wife.
Women thatenjoy guns are harder to find than the rarest Broomhandle!

Douglas.

alvin · 02-26-2012, 08:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Douglas Jr.

Women thatenjoy guns are harder to find than the rarest Broomhandle!

Without spouse's tolerance, it's impossible to acquire any collectible gun, or at most, one or two pieces.

02-15-2012, 07:48 PM	#1
cdmech User Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 218 Thanks: 87 Thanked 134 Times in 55 Posts	New to me Broomhandle I bought Mauser C96 Broomhandle to keep my Luger company. Today I got to shoot a few rounds of new Fiocchi 88gr. 7.63 ammo through it and I love it! I do have a question about how the trigger functions and since there has been some C96 discussions here lately was hoping someone familiar with these could help. The hammer doesn't always drop when the triggger is pulled. You can feel a very distinct "click" but nothing will happen. The next pull everything will work fine. I'm studying the mechanism trying to better understand how it works, and don't see any obviously worn or ill fitting parts. The same "click" can be felt in the trigger even if the hammer isn't cocked and seems to be made between the lock frame and the disconnector as it lifts the sear. Is such a "click" normal, or do I have parts that aren't fitting well? The gun is a MM, but all the numbered parts on the lock match the body. The barrel/extension and locking block match each other, but not the rest of the gun. Any common problems that might keep the hammer from dropping I should look for? Thanks for any input. Marc Attached Thumbnails

02-15-2012, 08:50 PM	#3
padredan User Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: louisiana Now, but from the Rebublic of Texas Posts: 937 Thanks: 429 Thanked 316 Times in 182 Posts	nice one marc __________________ In this world nothing is free, except the grace of God

02-15-2012, 09:07 PM	#4
cdmech User Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 218 Thanks: 87 Thanked 134 Times in 55 Posts	Thanks for the response. Maybe these pictures might help. Just holding the locking block in my hand I can feel a "click" as I lift the disconnector. it rubs where I marked the picture with a red arrow. The number 709 matches the rest of the lock assembly. Marc Attached Thumbnails

02-21-2012, 09:04 PM	#11
cdmech User Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 218 Thanks: 87 Thanked 134 Times in 55 Posts	I recieved today the parts I ordered. KB International gets an A+ in my book. Marc Attached Thumbnails

02-21-2012, 09:57 PM	#14
cdmech User Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 218 Thanks: 87 Thanked 134 Times in 55 Posts	Here are some pictures I hope can illustrate my problem. Any help is greatly appreciated. If I assemble the Lock Frame and Locking Block into the Body, the Trigger functions like I think it should. As can be seen in the last three pictures, the Trigger will hold the Sear Bar away from the Hammer with the Locking Block in the "ready to fire" position. Moving the Locking Block to the "discharge" position disengages the Disconnector from the Trigger as is should. When the Lock Frame and Locking Block are assembled onto the Barrel and Extension, the Locking Block pushed the plunger far enough back to move the Disconnector rearward until the trigger barely touches it and just flicks it enough to sometimes release the Hammer. This is the "clicking" noise I hear and feel. I tried to show in the pictures how much the Locking Block moves on the Locking Frame when assembled on the Barrel Extension by drawing a line on the two parts with a felt pen in the second and third picture. Is this excessive? In the first picture you can see how the Plunger has slightly moved the Disconnector back in the Sear Bar and exposed the little tab that holds it in place. I've been told a lot of hand fitting went into these pistols, and I'm thinking that my parts just need to be fitted better. Thanks for any opinions, Marc Attached Images

02-15-2012, 08:01 PM	#2
alvin User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: US Posts: 3,843 Thanks: 132 Thanked 729 Times in 438 Posts	Pull the trigger and feel the "click" is not normal on this variation (only normal on those pre-1900 ones). When you pull the trigger, the trigger raises the sear arm and sear arm raises the sear to release the cocked hammer. On this variation, the sear arm does not disconnect from the trigger top until the rocker plunger pushes it away from the the trigger during the barrel recoil. So, if the gun is empty, pull the trigger, no "click". If you hold the trigger, and use the other hand to push the barrel back a few millimeters, you will feel the "click" -- the gun is unlocked and the sear arm is disconnected from the trigger. That's on a normal gun. Then, you release the barrel, and slowly release the trigger, you will feel the trigger re-engaged with sear arm. This is the way I check a gun during gun show without disassembling it. On this one, I guess either the sear arm is not numbered to the gun (it's a numbered part on this variation), or it's too worn.

02-16-2012, 07:00 AM	#5
alvin User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: US Posts: 3,843 Thanks: 132 Thanked 729 Times in 438 Posts	The lock frame looks healthy from the picture. But hammer down, pull the trigger, the trigger is not supposed to disconnect on this variation. You may want to save this matching sear arm and install another sear arm on it to see the problem goes away or not, to isolate the problem.

02-16-2012, 07:43 AM	#6
cdmech User Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 218 Thanks: 87 Thanked 134 Times in 55 Posts	I have found one company online that has these parts. http://www.kbtacticalstar.com/index....50d2da6c9b79e5 Have you delt with them before? Do you know of any other good sources of parts? Thanks, Marc

02-16-2012, 07:56 AM	#7
alvin User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: US Posts: 3,843 Thanks: 132 Thanked 729 Times in 438 Posts	I have not bought from them so no experience. I bought a 1930 sear arm from Tom (forum member) in the past. Tom may have one. Original Mauser parts are becoming hard to find and price is rising.

02-16-2012, 09:01 AM	#9
alvin User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: US Posts: 3,843 Thanks: 132 Thanked 729 Times in 438 Posts	Back in 1920s, a warlord in Shansei province (China) made around 8500 those .45acp broomhandles. It was not hot at that time at all -- the volume was too small, and the quality was inferior comparing with those of German ones or Spanish ones. In 1950s, most of them were dumped into blast furnace during the "Great Leap Forward Movement" to contribute their steel weight. If history continues in its normal track, that should be end of this 45acp broomhandle. But, this 45acp gun found its 2nd (actually, 1st) favoritism in 1980s, due to some newly assembled ones were imported into the United States. So far, the best description I found was this one (copied from the link below): "Between the years 1985-1990 approximately 350 of these guns were imported into the US from TTN International in Taiwan through three different importers, Navy Arms being one of them. One of the importers IAR managed to import broken guns and parts and assembled them in the US. They didn't function very well, if at all. There were no guns recently produced by the Chinese for export. That is a rumor. It would have cost the Chinese government thousands of dollars to remake machinery to produce these guns. The original machinery was destroyed when China was taken over by the Communists." See: http://www.gunsinternational.com/Bro...n_id=100231770

02-18-2012, 06:21 PM	#10
cdmech User Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 218 Thanks: 87 Thanked 134 Times in 55 Posts	I ordered the disconnector and sear bar from KB international http://www.kbtacticalstar.com/ They seemed to be the only people around that had them. I got an email from them the next day saying my parts shipped so I'll let you know when I get them. I did find that they had a very good disassembly video on youtube http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M7Y1dAtQXug and seem to be very interested in broomhandles. I hope they are good company to deal with. Marc

02-21-2012, 09:07 PM	#12
alvin User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: US Posts: 3,843 Thanks: 132 Thanked 729 Times in 438 Posts	Does this new sear arm solve the gun's problem?

02-21-2012, 09:12 PM	#13
cdmech User Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 218 Thanks: 87 Thanked 134 Times in 55 Posts	No, I'm going to post some pictures and ask for some more ideas, Thanks, Marc

02-22-2012, 06:08 AM	#15
alvin User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: US Posts: 3,843 Thanks: 132 Thanked 729 Times in 438 Posts	In your original description "The hammer doesn't always drop when the triggger is pulled. You can feel a very distinct 'click' but nothing will happen." -- so firing did not happen, barrel, bolt lock, rocker plunger did NOT move. Nothing pushed sear arm away from the trigger and the trigger disconnected from the sear arm simply by pulling it (I guess that's where the 'click' came from). Trigger and sear arm fitting is needed on this gun, so the trigger won't disconnect by itself before the sear is raised high enough to release the hammer.

02-24-2012, 07:36 PM	#16
cdmech User Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 218 Thanks: 87 Thanked 134 Times in 55 Posts	Problem Solved I decided to try a different plunger on my broomhandle, still thinking that it shouldn't be pushing the disconnector back when assembling the pistol to the barrell and extension. I orded one from KB International and got it today. Again I have to give this company an A+. I was very pleased to see that the new plunger was actually shorter than my original as shown in the pictures. Now when I assemble the pistol the trigger makes solid contact with the disconnector and lifts the sear bar without disconnecting unless the barrell and extension is pushed back into a discharge position. Marc Attached Images

02-24-2012, 08:10 PM	#17
alvin User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: US Posts: 3,843 Thanks: 132 Thanked 729 Times in 438 Posts	It's great to know that you solved this problem! After selling a few C96s, I realized that selling was over-done. I don't have a gun to shoot anymore..... so I decided to buy one back. Very quickly I found one. The seller already agreed to sell it to me cheap if no one else wanted it. Unfortunately, another guy wanted it and pumped the price up. Anyway, I still got it. Will have some fun in range soon.

02-24-2012, 09:54 PM	#18
cdmech User Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 218 Thanks: 87 Thanked 134 Times in 55 Posts	20 years ago I purchased my very first gun. A beautiful Winchester M1 Garand through the CMP. I had absolutely no interest in guns whatsover but my new father-in-law insisted I buy one with him. I paid about $180 dollars. I didn't have the gun very long when I traded it and some cash for a rusty old Ford. When my new wife found out she was VERY mad and I had to go beg the guy to sell it back to me. Her dad taught her to NEVER sell guns. I had told they guy it was probably worth about $500 bucks, so he sold it back to me for $700. (that part I didn't tell my wife). Fortunately for me today my wife was smarter than I was. Marc Attached Images

02-25-2012, 12:17 PM	#19
Douglas Jr. User Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: South America Posts: 948 Thanks: 598 Thanked 584 Times in 254 Posts	Marc, Congratulations for your now fixed Broomhandle, for your nice Garand and for your great wife. Women thatenjoy guns are harder to find than the rarest Broomhandle! Douglas.