VOPO Lugers

[Schupo]

Gentlemen,

I am new to this forum but I am interested in German Police pistols of all types, including the VOPO lugers. I have a question or two.

What is the common wisdom on how one distinguishes East German reworks from the so-called Russian or Ukrainian reworks?

The Germans (particulary the DDR Volkspolizei) continually reworked lugers, and other firearms, throughout their useful lifespan. According to Dieter Marschall, the official VP rework program produced some 10,000 refurbished and re-issued P.08 along with some 100 new production pistols. Some of these can be determined to be DDR reworks from various proof marks but what about the more generic reworks that are usually classified as "dippers" or "Russian or Ukrainian" reworks? Does anyone have any solid information on how to positively identify these so-called "Russian Capture" lugers?

Here is a photo of an East German "VOPO" P.08 rework in my collection. This particular luger has the quickly identifiable plastic bullseye grips and DDR police proofs that identify it as an official Volkspolizei rework.

George

[unspellable]

I have a VoPo made by Mauser. It has the VoPo grips and two VoPo magazines numbered to the pistol. It has the standard VoPo hot dip blueing.

Now the sob story part. This pistol is all matching, has a minty bore, shows absolutely no signs of wear (It was probably a "rack" pistol and never saw actual VoPo service.) and shows no signs of having had any rust or pitting before it was refinished. In other words it appears as if it was in nearly mint condition before it went through the VoPo rework process. So why did they have to refinish it? Ah, the wonders of the bureaucratic mind set.

[Edward Tinker]

I split the thread, as it is better to start your own thread, and thus can see info directly related to your request.

Ed

[Schupo]

Ed,

Thank you for your guidance by splitting the East German Luger thread. Perhaps those who responded to the first thread will also respond here.

Unspellable,

You are quite correct about the German bureaucratic mindset. A pistol scheduled for refurbishment got refurbished, whether it really needed it or not. You will see this same thing occuring during the time of the Weimar Republic and NS Zeit with police pistols. Prussian Polizei Lugers were updated with sear safeties and magazine safeties and then the magazine safeties were subsequently removed. While you will see some variations that escaped these modifications and refurbishments, they are the exceptions to the rule. German police armorers did not change their mindset from 1933 to 1953.

Speaking of sear safeties, I have not seen a VOPO Luger with a sear safety. That does not mean that they do not exist... but does anyone have a VOPO P.08 with a sear safety?

George

[Edward Tinker]

George, I am under the impression that VOPO's were simply what they had left over. i.e. if they had guns in stock/storage/given back to the East Germans, they took them and used them?

I am pretty sure that I have seen either a VOPO or more likely a Russian capture sear safety. But that does make for an interesting thought.

BTW, here is the original thread that I split;
East German guns
http://forum.lugerforum.com/showthre...threadid=12284

[Vlim]

Hi,

The best giveaway for detecting VoPo's is the occasional mismatch of small parts, usually with the numbers crossed out. The newly manufactured replacement barrels, found on many of them have a lone crown/N proof on the bottom and no serial number or other markings, except for the random '9mm luger' or '9mm para' marking for some export markets. The crown of the barrel is always a bit in the rough, not smoothed.

Other giveaways are the wellknown VoPo grips. Many of them have police proofs (or have them peened out), many of them lack any form of DDR proofing.

Magazines: Haenel/Schmeisser type extruded with a /1001 marking on the tube. Base is usually made of pot metal, not aluminium.

Loading tool: Unmarked, thumb piece has horizonal anti-slip pattern.

When you're in Germany, try to locate a book with a blue plastic cover called 'Kleine Waffenkunde', published by the East German ministry of interior around 1966. It has some excellent VoPo illustrations in it.



The russian capture lugers are identified by the large X mark stamped somewhere on the pistol. They usually lack their original grips and mostly have cheap plastic replacement grips.

[Schupo]

Ed,

I agree with you that the VOPO reworks were a mixed lot of left over police, military, and parts lugers. Everything from an unmolested P.08 as described by unspellable to assembled bits and pieces. I certainly think that some of this lot are more desirable than others but I also think they are all collectable in their own right as official East German pistols. I know that some folks look down on these pistols as just an accumulation of parts but they are in fact an official Volkspolizei rework that served the DDR well as the Pistole 1001-2. I suppose my bias is that I like official reworks. I was trained as an armorer and I guess I like seeing the technical manner of forced matching and fitting of parts as well as the generally excellent work that went into these pistols. I know they are not for everyone but I hate to see them destroyed by removing the hot dip blueing or broken up for parts or "restored" to pre-1945 configuration. Heck, there were only 10,000 of these things made in the DDR so unmolested ones will only become more scarce as some are deconstructed.

G. van Vlimmern,

Thanks for the citation of the DDR manual. I have been looking for one of these manuals but I have not found one yet. I have also heard the statement about the large "X" mark on the Russian capture pistols and I know they are on some of the Kar.98 that have been reworked. I just wonder what that marking means in Soviet nomenclature? I would love to see a Soviet manual that describes these pistols and/or rework or markings similar to the way the DDR manuals do.

Interestingly, I see the same armorer rework instructions/techniques carried out on the VP lugers as on the Weimar period reworks. For instance, VP armorers did not usually scrub serial numbers but cancelled them out and then stamped, or electropenciled, new ones to force-match new refit parts. Earlier armorers did the same thing following then current marking instructions. Of course, the DDR crown/N proof and the VP star proof certainly indicate a VOPO luger. This particular pistol has one of the new DDR production barrels you spoke of with the roughly crowned barrel. This one was reworked in August of 1953 according to the barrel markings. This coincides with the 1953 date mentioned by Marschall for the time new luger production (as the P.1001-2) took place at the VEB Ernst Th�¤lmann facility in Suhl.

George

[Ron Smith]

George,

I was just going to add that Russians usually have an X stamped on the receiver above the ser#. Also most will have either vertically stryated resin type plastic grips. Or coursely checkered wood grips. And sometimes will retain the original grips.

[Schupo]

Ron,

Thanks for the reply. Is the "X" generally above the serial number on the Russian capture receivers? I was not certain there was a usual place for this marking. If you look at the VP stamp on my Luger you will notice that there is a previous stamp to the left that has been cancelled. I take that to mean that this pistol was probably reworked twice, or at least it was certainly inspected twice.

I had forgotten about the Soviet style grips. Good point.

George

[Ron Smith]

George,

The X is usually , from the ones I have seen, either above and to the rear of the ser# or following the ser# . I recall seeing one with the X up on the chamber to the left of the date, but they always seem to be on the left forward half of the receiver. Just my observation.

Ron

[Vlim]

Hi,

I've also observed pistols which have the X on the trigger guard beneath the serial number on the front of the frame.

My VoPo has a force-matched receiver where, as the result of some wear caused by the side plate lever, the old serial number can be seen, faintly, where the new serial number was stamped.

They seemed to force match the major parts as well (frame /receiver) by removing the number on the receiver, matching it to the one on the frame. They didn't bother to remove or renumber small parts and just X-ed them out.

To me, the big Russian X is no rework stamp, but just a simple marking that was applied to fire arms to mark them as Russian property. Therefore the phrase 'capture mark'. A bit like the 1920 property mark of the Weimar Reichswehr.

The VEB Ernst Thalmann in Suhl was actually a combination of former German companies that ended up on the wrong side of the border. It most certainly had the equipment of Haenel and Walther in it's possession and the company's DDR deliverer's code was '1001', which found it's way on the magazine tubes and the so-called 'Pistole 1001', which was no more than a Walther PP/K.

[Schupo]

G. van Vlimmeren,

I can certainly see the Russian "X" marking viewed as being a capture mark (property marking) as opposed to a rework stamp. Have you seen any of the Russian pistols that have not been reworked? I wonder if there was a Soviet inspection stamp of any sort on these reworked capture Lugers?

I suspect you are right about the equipment and tooling available at the Ernst Th�¤lmann plant being part Walther and part Haenel and probably others. Marschall states that the "PPK" stamps were made from altered Walther dies with the Walther name removed. Of course, some of the reworking was done at other facilities besides VEB Th�¤lmann but I guess all of the new production was done there; with the exception of the few weapons produced at the armorer schools.

Here is a view of one of the VEB Th�¤lmann P.08 magazines with the "2/2001" Lieferer- Nr. stamped on the body.